The OFFICIAL Trump/HRC/2016 General Election Thread...

[BugI02]

If #nevertrump doesn't want Trump or hitlary why is there 10:1 venom for Trump?

Virtue signaling

 

[T.Lex]

Dusty, if they could admit that is what's really driving this bus I would have an easier time with it. Otherwise they don't make sense. I can make room for true conscientious objectors, but otherwise I don't see what is so hard to understand about Hillary Bad > Trump Bad

I must've missed it.

What's your litmus test for "true conscientious objectors"? An oath of fealty? Shaded text?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

After raging for months about how refusing to support Trump = rooting for Hillary (which is what not-smart people claim), Ace (from AoSHQ) explicitly endorses a Democrat.

Ace definitely got bit by the Trump bug pretty bad. Rants have been quite insane lately.

But hey... Trump supporters literally endorsing Democrats now. There goes the facade that freedom/etc matters... it's all about getting pissy when people don't worship the same cult leader you do.

 

[indiucky]

Virtue signaling

Nah...It's racism...The Dixiecrats just ain't ready for an orange President......

 

[JettaKnight]

Maybe I don't have the neverTrump-smarts to understand why pushing for a Democrat [STRIKE]majority[/STRIKE] POTUS out of spite somehow makes our guns and freedoms safer.

You've conflated "pushing for" and "letting it take it's course".


With all the things Trump is doing and saying, it's not out of line to think Trump wants to lose. In many ways it makes sense. And if Paul Ryan believes that, then he's just not going to block Trump from reaching his dreams of coming close, but not winning.

...or...

There's only so many interventions you can do with a kleptomaniac / pervert / pathological liar / xenophobe / narcissist (chose any or all) before you just throw you hands up and say, "I'm done. You want to ruin your life? Fine, but I will not let you ruin my life and the rest of the family and I will not support your reckless behavior with my money."
We on INGO all hate the mom who says, "...but he's a gud boy." And yet now, Paul Ryan and others are saying, "No, he's a bad boy." and you're going to vilify them for that?

 

[Tombs]

Look, this is simple math.

Regardless of the POTUS election, a Dem majority would be bad, right? If # of Dems > # of Republicans, then President Trump can't get done all the great things he says, and President Clinton can achieve all the ****ty things she's saying.

That's bad.

Or wait. Are you guys saying that a Democratic majority would be better for Trump? I would be interested in that logic.

With the supreme court gone, presidential office gone, and only a republican majority in congress and the senate who are mostly go-along-to-get-along, I don't think it ultimately matters.

It's dooms day regardless. Where were they to stop obamacare? Where have they been all of this time? Where's our republicans we elected to roadblock the obama administration? And if they won't even stop obama, what makes you think they'll stop hillary?

 

[JettaKnight]

Nah...It's racism...The Dixiecrats just ain't ready for an orange President......

You always turn my snarl into a smile.

 

[JettaKnight]

With the supreme court gone, presidential office gone, and only a republican majority in congress and the senate who are mostly go-along-to-get-along, I don't think it ultimately matters.

It's dooms day regardless. Where were they to stop obamacare? Where have they been all of this time? Where's our republicans we elected to roadblock the obama administration? And if they won't even stop obama, what makes you think they'll stop hillary?

Maybe they are there. I mean, think about it. What hasn't happened? I still have 30 rnd mags. I still have FTF deals without an FFL. How much has taxes gone up? I'd guess welfare and unemployment was worse under Bush...


Other than Obamacare, what big thing can you point to?

 

[T.Lex]

With the supreme court gone, presidential office gone, and only a republican majority in congress and the senate who are mostly go-along-to-get-along, I don't think it ultimately matters.

Then you are simply wrong.

It matters greatly. All of these decisions matter greatly.

It's dooms day regardless. Where were they to stop obamacare?

What are you talking about? The legislative battle over Obamacare was epic.

Again, it is simple math. There is a number you need in both houses to pass something (or effectively veto it). Those numbers were not there.

Where have they been all of this time? Where's our republicans we elected to roadblock the obama administration? And if they won't even stop obama, what makes you think they'll stop hillary?

Leaving math out of it - which would be worse, Republicans that try and fail to stop HRC or Democrats that actively participate in her agenda?


ETA:

How soon we forget.
http://www.newsweek.com/how-hard-repeal-obamacare-433590

This past December and January, the Senate and the House passed a reconciliation billthat would have repealed fundamental building blocks of Obamacare, including subsidies to help moderate-income Americans afford health insurance and funds to expand Medicaid to low-income, uninsured individuals.
The Congressional Budget Office reviewed the proposal and determined that it would cancel insurance coverage for about 22 million Americans by 2018.
When the bill reached President Obama’s desk, he vetoed it. On February 2, Groundhog Day, the House failed to override his veto—their 63rd vote to repeal all or part of the ACA—voting almost completely along party lines.

 

[indiucky]

But hey... Trump supporters literally endorsing Democrats now. There goes the facade that freedom/etc matters... it's all about getting pissy when people don't worship the same cult leader you do.

I do not believe Trump supporters are cultist...I do not believe Trump supporters worship him any more than an arsonist worships the flame right before the fire is lit....

We as a nation are in the midst of an renovation...As in any renovation things get a little messy...But when it's all said and done I believe the Republic will be fine...Trump is going to stumble his first year or two in office and then when things start turning around we will say, "Wow...Remember what a mess this renovation was when we started?"

IMHO....And if I can implore the folks that are not backing Trump to refrain from calling his supporters cultist I think that would be a good thing....Good people can agree to disagree without saying disparaging things about one another...

For posterity....

Folks not voting for Trump are goodhearted people who can not, in good faith vote for him as a candidate....Folks supporting Trump are not cultists who are blind to his follies...They are goodhearted people who believe he is the best choice out of three running...

That's it....Just goodhearted Americans exercising their right to vote...

IMHO of course....

 

[T.Lex]

@indi

As usual, I admire your tenacity on that front.

Your post helped me realize something. Part of my issue with Trump, and his more vocal supporters, is the we-don't-need-no-water-let-the-MFer-burn attitude. By nature, I am more of a fixer. Sometimes, you have to break some stuff to get to the part that needs replacing, and you end up replacing more stuff, but the goal is to fix it. To make it right.

Too often, including here on INGO, it seems that Trump and his supporters are more interested in the tearing down than the fixing. In my experience, it is rarely ever better - in any measurable way - to destroy something and start over. It is always a combination of over budget, delayed, or ends up not really as good as it was designed or sold.

Particularly in politics, this eternal-war/burn the ***** down nihilism is irreconcilable with American values.

 

[Tombs]

@indi

As usual, I admire your tenacity on that front.

Your post helped me realize something. Part of my issue with Trump, and his more vocal supporters, is the we-don't-need-no-water-let-the-MFer-burn attitude. By nature, I am more of a fixer. Sometimes, you have to break some stuff to get to the part that needs replacing, and you end up replacing more stuff, but the goal is to fix it. To make it right.

Too often, including here on INGO, it seems that Trump and his supporters are more interested in the tearing down than the fixing. In my experience, it is rarely ever better - in any measurable way - to destroy something and start over. It is always a combination of over budget, delayed, or ends up not really as good as it was designed or sold.

Particularly in politics, this eternal-war/burn the ***** down nihilism is irreconcilable with American values.

The house has a concrete foundation but it's termite infested.

Rather than spending lifetimes trying to replace each piece board by board, only for each board to become infested again, it'd be best to bulldoze it to the foundation and rebuild on top of it.

The congressional hearings with the FBI opened my eyes to just how badly things need fixing, but those people aren't going to peacefully leave no more than termites are going to go away by asking them. They need forcible booted to the curb.

It isn't a matter of destroying things for the heck of it, it's a matter of fixing it the correct way instead of trying to apply endless bandaid fixes.

It just has to do with how poorly government is set up to fix things when it's completely infested with corruption. Unless you're going to tell me congress has the authority to go person by person in government office, firing them, without getting roadblocked at every turn by the corrupt elements throwing buckets of money at people to save their behind.

 

[indiucky]

Your post helped me realize something. Part of my issue with Trump, and his more vocal supporters, is the we-don't-need-no-water-let-the-MFer-burn attitude. By nature, I am more of a fixer. Sometimes, you have to break some stuff to get to the part that needs replacing, and you end up replacing more stuff, but the goal is to fix it. To make it right.

Particularly in politics, this eternal-war/burn the ***** down nihilism is irreconcilable with American values.

I agree...

I have never felt this way before, like you I had always considered myself a "fixer"...It was a slow process, my support of Trump..It really started with Huffington Post putting his campaign in the Entertainment section...I felt slighted, the sneers that night from the talking heads reporting that story left me feeling angry...I didn't even like him...I was a Rand Paul guy followed by Ted Cruz with a side of Carly Fiorina...Over the course of the primary that hatred and bile being directed towards Trump (and his supporters) brought out the contrarian in me....Right before Indiana's Primary my brother called and asked me what I was going to do....I said, "I am voting for Trump...I hate it but I hate more being told by elites who I can and can not vote for..." My brother laughed and said "Me too..."

And that's when I grabbed up the book of matches...I am not proud of it...But I own it...

Thanks for understanding...You, Jamil, GP, GFGT, and Jetta, I believe, understand how I got here and judge me not for going there....

I am very grateful to you all for that....

 

[BugI02]

There's only small number of politicians who are actively neverTrump. The majority (like myself and Paul Ryan) are just trying to run away from the train wreck.

If someone needs to let it go - it's you. You're propping up this neverTrump strawman and trying to paint anyone that passively objects to Trump as the enemy. It is Trump's fault, not neverTrump. No one has ever given me a reason to support Trump. Just, "vote Trump or we get Hillary!" So why the hell is it Trump when it could have been any other candidate. Come'on Bug, you're one of his biggest supporters, tell me why I should vote for him. And don't tell me in such terms that I can replace a ham sandwich with Trump and it still makes sense.

Ok, providing I don't do so and then just get the 'but you can't believe anything he says' diversion for my trouble

Because out in flyover country there are real people feeling real pain, and I happen to know some of them. They want to work but work doesn't want them. I really gravels my ass when people blow them off with 'get education so you can get a better job' as if a coal miner or a steel worker can just take some courses at the community college and become an IT professional. The people most likely to reach for this simplistic nostrum seem to be the ones whose boats are already floating just fine, thank you, in that fabled rising tide. These are honest, hard working people who wouldn't dream of going on the dole or turning to crime. It is not hyperbole to say they live lives of quiet desperation. They are tied to the land and the area of their forbears. They don't want to move, they just want the possibility of making an honest living again

Trump, in my mind, is the only one paying more than lip service to this problem. I won't argue here whether whatever he might propose as a remedy will help or fix the problem, that's not what you asked. It's enough that he sees it as a problem and wants to do something about it

It may be too late to fix lopsided trade deals, but its not to late to decline to enter into more of them. It may be to late to prevent the ME from going up in flames, but its not to late to decline to enter into further adventurism

It may be too late to keep jobs from going to low wage, low regulation, low rule of law countries, but its not to late to make it very expensive to import the fruits of this unholy bargain into our markets, perhaps having a chilling effect on future moves

And you want to talk about anger - what about us that are angry still about the outcome of the nomination? Anyone else could have this election wrapped up right now - even Kasich or Christie.

Why are you angry about the nomination? Did he cheat? Was the will of the people frustrated in some way? This is what we find so very frustrating. We were good little soldiers, even after Ron Paul was sabotaged (with the same excuse - unelectable) and I'm sorry I went along with Romney then. We feel like we kept our end of the bargain, only to be told there was no bargain when the results were not to the mainstream's (use whatever term you like, basically notTrump)
liking

Much is made of the DNC(?) email directing the press to favor Trump because Hillary thought he'd be easy to beat; but people forget their goto guy, Cruz, was on that list too. She least wanted to face Walker or most especially Rand Paul but what happened to them? Trump stole their oxygen but Jeb! was waiting to do the same, Trump just beat him to it

The Republican electorate overwhelmingly wanted an outsider candidate (Trump and Cruz together got over 60% of all primary votes cast). The people who didn't want Trump should have agreed upon one candidate to back much sooner. Trump won the thing fair and square, well within the rules extant. So who are you mad at and why?

The reason to vote for Trump is he's a different animal from the usual patrician, dark money, wall street apparatchik candidates our 'betters' think we should be content with

 

[1DOWN4UP]

F.T.GOP​®

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I

Best post in this thread all day.

 

[JettaKnight]

Indiucky, you and I have the same outlook: people are people and we want what's best: we may disagree on what's best, but we're in it together so bashing each other or assuming the guy has screws loose because he doesn't agree ain't going to make things better.


As to cultist, there's a hint of cult of personality with a select few, but nowhere near that of Peronistas.

 

[BugI02]

I must've missed it.

What's your litmus test for "true conscientious objectors"? An oath of fealty? Shaded text?

It's like pornography, I'll know it when I see it

I think you might qualify, but some things make me unsure of that

Don't ask unless you really want to know

Shaded as in colored or shaded as in meaning - or both (I like Teal)

 

[JettaKnight]

Thanks for the reasons to support Trump - makes a lot of sense.

Why are you angry about the nomination? Did he cheat? Was the will of the people frustrated in some way? This is what we find so very frustrating. We were good little soldiers, even after Ron Paul was sabotaged (with the same excuse - unelectable) and I'm sorry I went along with Romney then. We feel like we kept our end of the bargain, only to be told there was no bargain when the results were not to the mainstream's (use whatever term you like, basically notTrump) liking.

The will of the people was frustrated - a majority didn't favor Trump as the nominee. I'd not be surprised if something is done about the primaries in the future.



Of course, if Trump loses, he will have been unelectable, by demonstration. Who will you blame? You made no bargains, took no 'dark money',no compromise and got the candidate you wished for.

 

[JettaKnight]

It just has to do with how poorly government is set up to fix things when it's completely infested with corruption. Unless you're going to tell me congress has the authority to go person by person in government office, firing them, without getting roadblocked at every turn by the corrupt elements throwing buckets of money at people to save their behind.

Why should congress, a group that's primarily concerned with soundbites for their reelection, be given that level of power?

You can't complain about how awful they are and how much they screw things up and then want to give them more power. Do you really want Pelosi and Pals to be able to root out any conservatives in the justice department?

I don't know where you work, but I've worked for large companies. And one thing that chapped my ass was when corporate big shots from the big city came in a told me how to do my job.