The Millionaire Cop Next Door

[JBusch8899]

Lots of people have physically demanding jobs that don't provide a pension after 20 years, why should public servants be any different?

The fact that a segment of the population may not receive a pension, has no bearing upon others to not receive the same, regardless of one's occupation.

 

[hornadylnl]

The fact that a segment of the population may not receive a pension, has no bearing upon others to not receive the same, regardless of one's occupation.

I would say it has a lot of bearing when those who don't have a pension are forced to pay for those who do. Can I withhold my portion of taxes that pay for that pension?

 

[JBusch8899]

I would say it has a lot of bearing when those who don't have a pension are forced to pay for those who do. Can I withhold my portion of taxes that pay for that pension?

May I withhold my tax money if I don't desire to fund any specific expenditure in government? I'm willing to bet that there are a lot more things in government that you would object to your hard earned tax dollars being utilized, before you arrived to a government worker's pension.

 

[hornadylnl]

I'm willing to bet that there are a lot more things in government that you would object to your hard earned tax dollars being utilized, before you arrived to a government worker's pension.

I object to about 90+% of things our government spends tax dollars on. Are you saying government worker pensions are less unconstitutional than welfare? As a taxpayer, government worker pensions have a bearing on me and as such, I have a right to an opinion on them.

 

[JBusch8899]

I object to about 90+% of things our government spends tax dollars on. Are you saying government worker pensions are less unconstitutional than welfare? As a taxpayer, government worker pensions have a bearing on me and as such, I have a right to an opinion on them.

I'm not minimizing your opinion, or your right to it. This is just an honest exchange of views.

I'm stating that specific government wages have traditionally been low, with only such fringe benefits as a guarantee to a reasonable pension, as the motivation to keep qualified people in their positions.

Anyone receiving any type of fringe benefit has a bearing upon nearly everyone. Consumers pay additional money for a product or service to a business, in order to support such benefits as well.

I would much rather a person receive a fair wage and the eventual pension at retirement, than receive social services.

 

[hornadylnl]

Anyone receiving any type of fringe benefit has a bearing upon nearly everyone. Consumers pay additional money for a product or service to a business, in order to support such benefits as well.

But I as a consumer in the free market can weigh those benefit costs and choose another business if I want. Example. Business A pays their workers and exhorbitant wage, slave wage, donates to Barack Obama, whatever the issue, I can choose to take my money to business B that is more in line with my views.

Where is Government B that I can choose over Government A? What is happening is that government is telling me that I will pay more for a service I don't want or need. If the citizen had any say in it, they'd get to vote for salaries, benefits, etc. What is my recourse for overpaying for bad service from the government? The ballot box? Please.

(BTW, we're cool and I'm not trying to start a fight here as the tone of the above may come across that way.)

 

[JBusch8899]

But I as a consumer in the free market can weigh those benefit costs and choose another business if I want. Example. Business A pays their workers and exhorbitant wage, slave wage, donates to Barack Obama, whatever the issue, I can choose to take my money to business B that is more in line with my views.

Fair enough. Save your local utilities not managed by governmental entities, local or regional monopolies, oligopolies, etc.

Where is Government B that I can choose over Government A? What is happening is that government is telling me that I will pay more for a service I don't want or need. If the citizen had any say in it, they'd get to vote for salaries, benefits, etc. What is my recourse for overpaying for bad service from the government? The ballot box? Please.

The ballot box, possibly. Why not choose to run for the office itself? Sarah Palin and Sonny Bono are just two quick examples from the top of my head.

(BTW, we're cool and I'm not trying to start a fight here as the tone of the above may come across that way.)

I thought so, but just wanted to be sure.

 

[hornadylnl]

I saw Sonny Bono walking around our camp in Bosnia. Unfortunately we were briefed on what we could and couldn't say so I just avoided him. All I wanted to ask him was how was Cher in bed.

I used to think the ballot box would matter. I read our local newspaper and shake my head every time. The county or town governments can't do anything without applying for a grant as if someone in Honolulu, Hawaii should help pay for it.

Every week, there seems to be some update about tax increment financing and how they want to tax this or that. Some in the city government want to buy an old abandoned factory building and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to revamp it to hold trucks. They want to take tax money to buy land for "economic development" to lure businesses here and they don't have a clue why they will never come. They stand there like vultures drooling over the ways the governments will make money on them. They think "shovel ready" will attract them and stand in amazement when prospective businesses want to know about tax rates, etc.

Local school officials tell us their buildings are all but caving in yet they have $300+k to spend on bleachers and gym floors. They have $90+k to spend on a concession stand for a baseball field. That's more than I'm asking for my current 1800sf house with .8 acres of yard. I'm in that tax district and yet the school officials don't see the disconnect with spending that kind of money on a concession stand when the average home in that district isn't worth that much.

We all sit here and complain about what Pelosi and the other communists are doing in Washington, but are we really any better in our own local governments and communities? When Joe and Jane Six Pack are more concerned with the condition of the basketball court their Johnny and Suzy are playing on then their education, where do they get the right to complain about Washington?

I would say 90% of Americans don't have a f'n clue what liberty really means. If they can't wake up to it in their home town, they surely aren't going to wake up to it at the ballot box. I've given up on this country as a lost cause. We as Americans talk a good game but when it comes to our pet interests, all bets are off. So here we have government employees who think they are entitled to any number of benefits regardless of the ability of citizens to pay it. Their unions or shear numbers guarantee that no politician will work to reverse it lest they be voted out at the next election. Americans can be mobilized to vote to save their slice of socialism but when it comes to vote for liberty, they are a no show.

Sorry for the long rant.

 

[JBusch8899]

I saw Sonny Bono walking around our camp in Bosnia. Unfortunately we were briefed on what we could and couldn't say so I just avoided him. All I wanted to ask him was how was Cher in bed.

I used to think the ballot box would matter. I read our local newspaper and shake my head every time. The county or town governments can't do anything without applying for a grant as if someone in Honolulu, Hawaii should help pay for it.

Every week, there seems to be some update about tax increment financing and how they want to tax this or that. Some in the city government want to buy an old abandoned factory building and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to revamp it to hold trucks. They want to take tax money to buy land for "economic development" to lure businesses here and they don't have a clue why they will never come. They stand there like vultures drooling over the ways the governments will make money on them. They think "shovel ready" will attract them and stand in amazement when prospective businesses want to know about tax rates, etc.

Local school officials tell us their buildings are all but caving in yet they have $300+k to spend on bleachers and gym floors. They have $90+k to spend on a concession stand for a baseball field. That's more than I'm asking for my current 1800sf house with .8 acres of yard. I'm in that tax district and yet the school officials don't see the disconnect with spending that kind of money on a concession stand when the average home in that district isn't worth that much.

We all sit here and complain about what Pelosi and the other communists are doing in Washington, but are we really any better in our own local governments and communities? When Joe and Jane Six Pack are more concerned with the condition of the basketball court their Johnny and Suzy are playing on then their education, where do they get the right to complain about Washington?

I would say 90% of Americans don't have a f'n clue what liberty really means. If they can't wake up to it in their home town, they surely aren't going to wake up to it at the ballot box. I've given up on this country as a lost cause. We as Americans talk a good game but when it comes to our pet interests, all bets are off. So here we have government employees who think they are entitled to any number of benefits regardless of the ability of citizens to pay it. Their unions or shear numbers guarantee that no politician will work to reverse it lest they be voted out at the next election. Americans can be mobilized to vote to save their slice of socialism but when it comes to vote for liberty, they are a no show.

Sorry for the long rant.

I'm don't necessarily disagree with you that American are apathetic about everything but their television, and that the values demonstrated of fiscal responsibility are disgusting, at best.

Its our own fault that this has occurred to our country. Its time to get off our respective asses and do something, other than b*tch about it.

 

[theweakerbrother]

Sorry for the long rant.

Don't apologize for the TRUTH.

 

[hornadylnl]

I'm don't necessarily disagree with you that American are apathetic about everything but their television, and that the values demonstrated of fiscal responsibility are disgusting, at best.

Its our own fault that this has occurred to our country. Its time to get off our respective asses and do something, other than b*tch about it.

I talk to lots of people about the fiscal issues. Tell all your friends that Irsay should pay for his own stadium. Tell parents that schools shouldn't fund their kids sports programs. Tell your neighbors you don't want to pay for parks and restoring old bridges that sit in parks. Tell them you want the economic development committee disbanded. Tell them you would rather drive on pot holed roads than pay higher property taxes. Tell them you want to defund 90% of the things government spends their money on. Then report back to me how all that goes. Your friends and neighbors want this crap or the politicians would be hanging from lamp posts.

 

[Indy317]

I object to about 90+% of things our government spends tax dollars on.

Tell them you want to defund 90% of the things government spends their money on. Then report back to me how all that goes. Your friends and neighbors want this crap or the politicians would be hanging from lamp posts.

And it sounds like you want "this crap" as well, otherwise you won't stop at 90%. So what government service is it that you are OK with? Fact is, you are right, folks do want certain stuff provided by government. You are no different. There are things out there that you are OK with government stealing people's money to fund, because _you_ receive a benefit from it.

So our "leaders" have basically used debt to please everyone. You wanted certain things, so they funded those things. Others wanted other things, so they got funded. Now we are seeing things come to a head. The whole concept of government spending, borrowing, etc.. is becoming such a joke.

As far as millionaire public workers. This is somewhat true, and somewhat false. The problems with pensions are numerous:

Pensions were started when everyone else had one as well. The thing is, back in the day, most cops didn't get paid jack, so the pension wasn't all that much. However, as law enforcement has changed, there has been a need to hire folks with more intelligence and logic. As such, to get such folks, pay had to go up. As pay went up, the pension payouts also went up. Today, most major cities pay what I call a decent wage. Some folks will say $62K/year plus a company car isn't enough, but it all depends on the person. I was raised in a household where savings wasn't a priority. My folks were both laid off for a year, and neither of my folks made anything near $62K/year for the most part. They were in debt a lot, mostly for vacations, sports, etc.. There was also a lot of waste in terms of eating out, etc.. I worked most of my later teen years, so I wasn't much of a costs burden, but my siblings were involved in sports, etc., and that all costs money. You have to buy equipment, won't be home to eat so you buy food on the road, gas for travel, etc.. Some folks live life paycheck to paycheck, even if they make $100K+/year.

I make $42K/year. With the minimal mandatory OT I get, I will almost always close the year out with $45K. Last two years I made $50K/year, of which I sent the IRS checks for $2,600 both years. Not having kids and a large mortgage deduction means I pay. As such, I am limiting my OT as much as possible. I am also a very frugal person. My home should be paid-off within two years, barring anything such as a job loss, etc.. However, I don't spend money like some. I don't think I am owed a go away vacation, so I don't take many vacations. My recent vacations have been day trips to S. Indiana, Lafayette, Parke Co., Metamora, and Brown County. However, I did have about three weeks of vacation in 2006 and 2007. Since my debt is important to me, I have chosen my path of how we spend/save our money.

My pension isn't the police and fire pension plan, it is basic PERF plan. If I am a millionaire when I retire, it will be because of my own personal spending and saving, not because government gave me a windfall of a pension. I do agree we will have to do something about public pensions. In most cases, things have already happened. Many K-12 school districts have stopped giving PERF to support staff. They have bumped the pay a dollar or so an hour, and you get no benefits at all. My wife worked for a large, well to do district. She made a nice hourly wage for what she was tasked to do, however she worked 35 hours/week, with no benefits at all. In the summer, she would only be allowed to work 24 hours. Eventually, her position was eliminated totally.

In addition to hiring folks part-time, some states have started blocking the padding of pension plans just prior to retirement. California was notorious for this. You had a police Lt. who was good friends with the upper level admin. Just prior to his/her retirement, they would be given a position upgrade to a higher pay grade. This would then mean the pension payout would be greater, even if the person only worked that job for one or two years.

I personally support getting rid of all different pensions Indiana offers. There needs to be one pension plan, for all government workers. I don't care for these special plans for prosecutors, judges, cops, firefighters, state workers, legislators, etc.. Get one plan, make it a 20 or 25 year vested type plan. If we continue to pay public workers more, we are only going to have to tax them more, just to pay for their pensions. While the best thing would be to eliminate pensions, that likely won't happen anytime in the near future.

Either way, pensions are killing state and local governments. Indiana will be in just as bad as shape as California, it will just take time for our pensions to finally bankrupt the state. The thing is, no one is willing to do what needs to be done, so this stuff will just continue until we have a complete financial collapse in the US.

 

[hornadylnl]

Indy317

I'm all for the government spending money on things laid out by the constitution. The market can take care of the rest of the needs. My community just had to have a YMCA. They had fundraisers for years and even some very large private donors. They got the facility built and now it's no longer a YMCA. I guess they couldn't even afford to pay for the privelage of keeping the "YMCA" name. I hear it's broke. It is another glaring example of a money pit. If the community had the desire, a private enterprise would have built it and make a profit.

People see a perceived need for something and call on government to build it. An entreprenuer sees a perceived need for something and decides if he can make a profit. If so, he takes the risk and hopefully makes money.

I subscribe to the Austrian school of economics. Who is John Galt?

 

[Eddie]

I used to think the ballot box would matter. I read our local newspaper and shake my head every time. The county or town governments can't do anything without applying for a grant as if someone in Honolulu, Hawaii should help pay for it.

Every week, there seems to be some update about tax increment financing and how they want to tax this or that. Some in the city government want to buy an old abandoned factory building and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to revamp it to hold trucks. They want to take tax money to buy land for "economic development" to lure businesses here and they don't have a clue why they will never come. They stand there like vultures drooling over the ways the governments will make money on them. They think "shovel ready" will attract them and stand in amazement when prospective businesses want to know about tax rates, etc.

Local school officials tell us their buildings are all but caving in yet they have $300+k to spend on bleachers and gym floors. They have $90+k to spend on a concession stand for a baseball field. That's more than I'm asking for my current 1800sf house with .8 acres of yard. I'm in that tax district and yet the school officials don't see the disconnect with spending that kind of money on a concession stand when the average home in that district isn't worth that much.

We all sit here and complain about what Pelosi and the other communists are doing in Washington, but are we really any better in our own local governments and communities? When Joe and Jane Six Pack are more concerned with the condition of the basketball court their Johnny and Suzy are playing on then their education, where do they get the right to complain about Washington?

I would say 90% of Americans don't have a f'n clue what liberty really means. If they can't wake up to it in their home town, they surely aren't going to wake up to it at the ballot box. I've given up on this country as a lost cause. We as Americans talk a good game but when it comes to our pet interests, all bets are off. So here we have government employees who think they are entitled to any number of benefits regardless of the ability of citizens to pay it. Their unions or shear numbers guarantee that no politician will work to reverse it lest they be voted out at the next election. Americans can be mobilized to vote to save their slice of socialism but when it comes to vote for liberty, they are a no show.

Sorry for the long rant.

Part of the problem is that the local government is so hogtied with unfunded mandates and federal regulations that they can't do anything different. To an extent it doesn't matter who you elect to your local government if once they get into office there is barely enough money to maintain the things that they are required by law to maintain.

You are spot on about grants. Local government can't do anything without applying for a grant and the grant strictly controls how they get to spend the money.

Our local governments are struggling just to put fuel in the deputies' cars and keep the power and water on in the courthouse. If the state and federal government would just let most of the taxes that they take from the people in the community stay in the community and let the locally elected officials decide how to spend that money then we might be able to make a difference.

The current system is a big piece of toast with a small pat of butter; you can only spread it around so much.

 

[Indy317]

I'm all for the government spending money on things laid out by the constitution.

Which will always be debatable. You might be OK with me paying $2,000/year in taxes to have 15 aircraft carriers. However, someone else will be upset that we are even spending a dime on one. Then you look at roads and the various ways we are now funding them. Some folks will say that there is no need for an interstate system, so why should they have to pay for something they will never use.

In the end, people are only OK with that part of government that benefits them personally and/or financially. No one offers to pay more for their benefit, especially when that could mean a doubling of taxation. If everyone was allowed to opt out of certain spending, there would be no government at all. Too many folks would opt out of spending for military, roads, police, fire, EMS, etc. and would rather have that money in their own bank accounts.

It reminds me of the guy who lived in the pay-your-way fire district. He opted not to pay and had a fire. The fire department responded, to protect neighboring properties that might catch fire. He begged them to start fighting the fire at his home, offering what he owed for the year right then and there. They sat back, and let his property burn to the ground. This guy complained to the papers, etc.. I wish I would have known him, because if he ever went on an anti-forced tax rant for basic services, I would have called him out on it. Lots of people are like this, they claim they don't want something, until they need it. Then they complain about government not providing it, etc..

 

[hornadylnl]

Part of the problem is that the local government is so hogtied with unfunded mandates and federal regulations that they can't do anything different. To an extent it doesn't matter who you elect to your local government if once they get into office there is barely enough money to maintain the things that they are required by law to maintain.

You are spot on about grants. Local government can't do anything without applying for a grant and the grant strictly controls how they get to spend the money.

Our local governments are struggling just to put fuel in the deputies' cars and keep the power and water on in the courthouse. If the state and federal government would just let most of the taxes that they take from the people in the community stay in the community and let the locally elected officials decide how to spend that money then we might be able to make a difference.

The current system is a big piece of toast with a small pat of butter; you can only spread it around so much.

And 90% of the people don't care. You try to convince them and they hate you for it. How do you fix that? Who is John Galt?

 

[Eddie]

And 90% of the people don't care. You try to convince them and they hate you for it. How do you fix that? Who is John Galt?

In my opinion it can't be fixed in the sense that we can rely on those in power to realize the error of their ways and change them. The greed and corruption runs too deep. Sometimes I can teach my kids a lesson and sometimes I have to sit back and watch them fail in order for them to learn. I think this is one of those situations where telling someone that the oven is hot won't work. We may need to sit back and watch them get burned.

Meanwhile I'll work within a corrupt and greedy system to earn all the dollars I can and convert them into wealth in the form of guns, ammo, tools and food.

 

[JBusch8899]

I talk to lots of people about the fiscal issues.

I believe it. You are doing it now.

Tell all your friends that Irsay should pay for his own stadium.

Agreed. I already do.

Tell parents that schools shouldn't fund their kids sports programs.

I tell parents that school is meant for education, and sports programs are secondary to such. However, there is a minor place for sports in schools.

Tell your neighbors you don't want to pay for parks and restoring old bridges that sit in parks.

I disagree. Green space, select architectural aesthetics and historical references are important to a community.

Tell them you want the economic development committee disbanded.

So long as the committee isn't overly funded, and is effective in it's purpose, the benefits far outweigh the liabilities.

Tell them you would rather drive on pot holed roads than pay higher property taxes.

Responsible fiscal management should assure that infrastructure would not require additional taxes.

Tell them you want to defund 90% of the things government spends their money on.

90%? Remember that each governmental entity is unique, and it's whole number residents have unique values. Not every entity is capable of doing such.

 

[irishfan]

Tell parents that schools shouldn't fund their kids sports programs. Tell your neighbors you don't want to pay for parks and restoring old bridges that sit in parks.

I can't do that since I do think that school sports should be a part of school funding. Also, I do want some of my tax money to go toward the building and upkeep of parks so that my children can go play there with their friends. However, I do believe that people have a tendency to go overboard on some spending but I will never agree with cutting all spending for parks and sports.

 

[hornadylnl]

We may need to sit back and watch them get burned.

I'll ask again. Who is John Galt? The only way for our government and people to figure this one out is for the producers to go on strike.

As for parks and sports, where is that in the constitution? Why can't private enterprise take them over?