The (Current year) General Political/Salma Hayek discussion Thread Part V

[ArcadiaGP]

Didn't expect the "Hitler is better than Trump" angle, but here we are.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Didn't expect the "Hitler is better than Trump" angle, but here we are.

I don't even understand what this means. "Even Breshnev said 'Africans want to live like Lenin in the jungle.'"

 

[nonobaddog]

That is an untruth based on wishful thinking, and an affinity for war criminals:

Are you seriously accusing me in writing of having an affinity for war criminals?

You have had time to respond but you failed to do so. I find your personal insult to be very offensive. That crosses the lines.
I suggest you answer the question.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You have had time to respond but you failed to do so. I find your personal insult to be very offensive. That crosses the lines.
I suggest you answer the question.

If you're defending the ability of soldiers to work outside of the rules of war, then it would appear that you have an affinity for war criminals. That's not an insult, that simply the truth.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

If you're defending the ability of soldiers to work outside of the rules of war, then it would appear that you have an affinity for war criminals. That's not an insult, that simply the truth.

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.” -- General George Patton

 

[ghitch75]

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.” -- General George Patton

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DoggyDaddy again.

 

[BugI02]

He was acquitted. After the one SEAL, given immunity recanted, prosecutors knew they could make their case. I'm not sure how you figure it was a hatchet job, unless you're unfamiliar with how people given immunity have a fairly long history of rolling back their stories.
Gallagher implied he killed the prisoner, with a knife, and another SEAL indicated that he saw Gallagher kill the prisoner, with a knife. Those, as far as what was said by both, is factual. Explain to me how you think this was a setup?

The quote is from the wiki, chosen for succinctness

The case was considered to be a "difficult"[13] one due to the Navy's slow response to the reports of misconduct.[13] No formal investigation began for nearly a year after the reports were made and by then much of the physical evidence, such as the bodies of those alleged to be killed by Gallagher, were not recoverable.[13] The prosecution's case relied largely on eyewitness testimony, which the defense sought to discredit as merely that of spiteful malcontents who disliked Gallagher's gruff leadership style.[5] The defense also said that Gallagher's text messages merely reflected dark comedy in a stressful situation, and that his more outrageous boasts were clearly impossible (such as killing twenty people a day).[1] Some of the potential witnesses were non-cooperative, citing the Fifth Amendment's protection against self-incrimination for being hesitant to testify.[1] The defense also claimed that the lead NCIS agent slanted witness statements and interviews to be more hostile to Gallagher than warranted in his notes.[14] For the most serious charge of murder of a prisoner, according to the defense, Gallagher merely stabbed a corpse and embellished a story out of misplaced bravado; the prisoner had already died of his wounds.[1] The defense cited two high-ranking Iraqi Army members that the detainee was "barely alive"[1] when he arrived; according to prosecution witnesses, the prisoner's leg injury didn't appear serious to the initial medic who treated the prisoner, and that the medic was surprised the detainee was dead when he returned.[1]


Gallagher's case provoked controversy. Representative Dan Crenshaw of Texas, a Republican, fiercely advocated in favor of Gallagher and wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Navy asking for Gallagher's condition while detained to be improved.[7] On March 30, President Trump intervened and ordered Gallagher transferred to "less restrictive confinement" after complaints from his supporters, particularly commentators on Fox and Friends, about his detainment.[15][16] This was the first time a President directly intervened in an imprisonment conditions matter since President Richard Nixon intervened in favor of Lieutenant William Calley, one of the perpetrators of the My Lai Massacre.[17] Nixon ordered Calley released from a military brig to house arrest in 1971.[18]


The military court case took a further bizarre turn over accusations made by Gallagher's defense lawyers of spying by the prosecution in May 2019. According to defense lawyers, the prosecution sent both them and Navy Times reporter Carl Prine an email that included a Web beacon.[13] People who viewed the original email or a forward of this email would likely load the image through their mail-reading program, which would record where it came from; this allows for imperfect monitoring of who has seen an email, without installing any software. It has been speculated that this image was intended to find leakers violating the judge's gag order, as reporters (including Prine) have repeatedly scooped private documents related to the case.[13] As a result of the spying controversy, the judge ordered Gallagher freed from prison while awaiting trial as a remedy to interference from the prosecution.[19] The judge later ordered that the chief prosecutor, Commander Christopher Czaplak, be dismissed from the case and replaced as a result of the incident.[20]


Representative Duncan Hunter of California was a fierce advocate for Gallagher throughout the process, saying that he himself had posed for pictures with a dead enemy combatant and that American artillery fire had probably killed hundreds of Iraqi civilians.[21] On May 8 he said he had seen secret body camera footage that exonerated Gallagher of one of the charges against him, but this video has not been publicly revealed.[22] Hunter advocated in favor of a presidential pardon for Gallagher if he is convicted. According to anonymous administration sources in May 2019, the Justice Department was indeed investigating Gallagher's case in preparation for a possible pardon from President Trump.[23] This potential pardon was hotly criticized by a number of commentators and news outlets.[24][18]


Gallagher's trial was originally set for June 10, 2019, but was postponed to June 17, 2019, due to removal of the lead prosecutor.[25][26]


On June 20, 2019, during Gallagher's trial, one of the platoon medics from Gallagher's team testifying as a prosecution witness said that although Gallagher did stab the ISIS fighter, he did not actually kill him. The medic, Special Operator First Class Corey Scott who testified under an immunity agreement, testified that he himself had killed the wounded prisoner by covering his breathing tube and asphyxiating him.[27] Scott called it a "mercy killing" and argued that the victim would have been tortured by Iraqi personnel due to his connection to the Islamic State.[28] Prosecutors were taken by surprise, since the medic had never given this version of events to them or Navy investigators. This account was also contrary to the statements of at least seven other SEALs[29] as well as Scott's previous statements. Because of the immunity agreement Scott cannot be prosecuted even for admitting publicly that he killed the man, though he could be prosecuted for perjury if the account is proven false.[30]

The problems I have are numerous

Some of the 'witnesses' pleaded the fifth

The lead NCIS agent's presentation of interviews and witness statements did not match his contemporaneous notes, with the presentation being slanted against Gallagher

The Iraqi Army members say the detainee was barely alive, but the prosecution says his leg wound did not appear serious. Note that in later testimony, Scott says he actually killed the man by covering his breathing tube. If he only had a leg wound why was he given a Trach? The fact he had one lends credence to reports he was thought to be suffering from blast lung, and indeed was in bad condition in contradiction to the prosecutions assertions

I have also read that it was Gallagher that gave him his Trach. This raises the possibility in my mind that other 'witnesses' may have seen that process and conflated it to the prisoner's subsequent death (that we now know was caused by Scott) from whence arose the 'stabbed prisoner in the neck' trope
If the prosecution was on the up and up and had a strong case, why were they trying to spy on the defense

And it turns out that Scott had been lying all along and that his testimony under immunity came as a surprise to other SEALs who testified to a different set of 'facts'. You have a group of witnesses testifying to a certain outline of events, then one of them recants. That does not strengthen the impression of the truthfullness of the others, and your assertion that people given immunity often roll back their stories seems specious. I doubt they 'roll back' their stories to implicate themselves in much more serious crimes. Scott's career is over either way, why would he implicate himself in murder unless he strongly suspected he would be caught if not granted immunity - and the grant of immunity usually means he has some testimony the prosecution wants and he has to co-operate to complete the deal. By what testimony he gave, he short-circuited that deal and made his own further testimony worthless. Gallagher is likely no angel, but he seems among the less scurrilous players in this little drama

 

[Kutnupe14]

“No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.” -- General George Patton

Well yeah.
and since we’re quote in Patton:
[h=3]Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men.[/h]

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Reminder to never donate to a Presidential candidate if you value your inbox not being turned into a dumpster.

This also says nothing to the ridiculous texts and phone calls I get from campaigns every damn day.

 

[jbombelli]

why don't you put in plain terms exactly what you're advocating here.

I'm not advocating anything. I'm just explaining how it is.

 

[nonobaddog]

If you're defending the ability of soldiers to work outside of the rules of war, then it would appear that you have an affinity for war criminals. That's not an insult, that simply the truth.

No class liar!

 

[nonobaddog]

I have also read that it was Gallagher that gave him his Trach. This raises the possibility in my mind that other 'witnesses' may have seen that process and conflated it to the prisoner's subsequent death (that we now know was caused by Scott) from whence arose the 'stabbed prisoner in the neck' trope

The Navy Times article says the guy was not breathing right, possibly because he had blast lung so they put in a trach tube and two chest tubes to try to get him to breathe. Then they put in a 'cric' or cricothyroidotomy. The reason to resort to putting in a 'cric' is if the trach tube was not working to open the airway. They may or may not have pulled the trach tube depending on how far down it went, it could be in the way of inserting the cric tube which was replacing it. To put in the cric tube you have to cut the neck skin to get to the airway and then cut the airway itself at the cricothyroid ligament to make a hole to insert the tube. Doing this in the field can look pretty bad, especially to someone who has not seen one before. At this point in all likelyhood the guy was not going to make it. This sounds like they tried everything available to get him to breathe.

 

[BugI02]

Yeah, I read the Navy Times cite and wondered if someone seeing Gallagher work on the guys neck like that and then later seeing him dead might mistake what he was about (haven't gone back to it. Am I remembering correctly that Gallagher did the work on opening an airway?)

I could also see a black humor scenario where Gallagher might take that picture and claim he killed him with his knife, because by one interpretation of events it would be true although that wasn't the intent. That seems a stretch, though, without more info. Apparently no one else knew that Scott offed him (assuming Scott isn't lying again for some reason)

 

[nonobaddog]

Yeah, I read the Navy Times cite and wondered if someone seeing Gallagher work on the guys neck like that and then later seeing him dead might mistake what he was about (haven't gone back to it. Am I remembering correctly that Gallagher did the work on opening an airway?)

I could also see a black humor scenario where Gallagher might take that picture and claim he killed him with his knife, because by one interpretation of events it would be true although that wasn't the intent. That seems a stretch, though, without more info. Apparently no one else knew that Scott offed him (assuming Scott isn't lying again for some reason)

It says Gallagher "was present" when they did the trach tube and the chest tubes and then says he actually performed the cricothyroidotomy. With his years of experience he might have been the only one trained or had done one before, don't know.

 

[BugI02]

It just caught my interest that he had worked on the guys neck with some sharp instrument (don't know if it was his knife), and then he was accused of stabbing the guy in the neck to kill him. It just seemed an odd place to pick for the killing stroke so it made me wonder if people were seeing the work on the neck he was doing to try to save the prisoner then finding out the guy died and drawing the wrong conclusion

 

[nonobaddog]

It just caught my interest that he had worked on the guys neck with some sharp instrument (don't know if it was his knife), and then he was accused of stabbing the guy in the neck to kill him. It just seemed an odd place to pick for the killing stroke so it made me wonder if people were seeing the work on the neck he was doing to try to save the prisoner then finding out the guy died and drawing the wrong conclusion

Could be, especially if they were out to get him anyhow and thought this was their opportunity.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Rep John Lewis has announced he has stage 4 pancreatic cancer.

 

[actaeon277]

Didn't expect the "Hitler is better than Trump" angle, but here we are.

If Rachel watched a bunch of her friends and associates marched off and killed, she might decide that being "well read" or "educated" matters less than slaughtering/enslaving people.

 

[nonobaddog]

Obviously rachel isn't smart, educated or well read. Just another mouth making noises.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Reminder to never donate to a Presidential candidate if you value your inbox not being turned into a dumpster.

This also says nothing to the ridiculous texts and phone calls I get from campaigns every damn day.

I "signed" one of those whitehouse.gov petitions and now Trump is spamming my inbox.