The [Current Year] General Political/Salma Hayek discussion thread, part 4!!!

[Leadeye]

I see this whole thing devolving into something like the OJ trial, but with less substance. Hordes of journalists worked up to a peak frenzy, "Camp Impeachment" somewhere in dc, pencil necked and high pants inquisitors competing for attention with evermore shrill accusations and insinuations of more to come. Endless hysteria on preempted tv channels 24/7. Internet clicks by the trillions by the political junkies. In the end, the fish will get away, if it ever was on the line at all.

 

[ghuns]

That essentially say that if you try and rob someone, and they don't have money, it's not a crime. Obviously that isn't quite right.

Biden's son was raking in $50K a month from a Ukrainian company for doing a job he was in no way qualified to do. Biden brags about getting a prosecutor canned who was investigating that company. All this during a time when Biden was the Obama administration's go to guy for Ukraine.

I don't know. To me, that seems like something worth looking into.

If it hurts Biden's political prospects and raises Trump's, so be it.

At least it's out in the open. I mean, it's not like Trump is obtaining FISA warrants based on falsified info and using the FBI to spy to Biden's campaign or anything.

 

[nonobaddog]

I think once again this administration has run afoul of the law because they complaint wasn't forwarded to congress. And if the government thought Biden and Co had done something corrupt, why is the president's personal lawyer going to the Ukraine, and not government agents?

Here's the fun quote. Is it not law that the complain "shall" be forwarded to congress? That IS a fact.

This has already been explained to you in posts and including the NYT article. But hey, you really CAN tap dance!

 

[BugI02]

Here's the fun quote. Is it not law that the complain "shall" be forwarded to congress? That IS a fact.

Here's even more fun. If the 'whistleblower' is complaining about something of which he/she has no direct knowledge but is basing the complaint on hearsay, what makes you think the system found the complaint credible, which is what triggers the duty to notify congress. The actual law says the complaint is forwarded to SecDef. The IG of the division concerned doesn't decide anything beyond whether to kick the complaint upstairs, the determination of the credibility of the complaint is made elsewhere

The complainant still has the right to forward a complaint directly to congress if he/she has initiated this process through channels but does not feel the results are satisfactory. Has he/she done so?

You want to look at DoD OIG instructions 7050.11, which implements the whistleblower act of 1989

 

[ArcadiaGP]

STREEEEEEEEEEEEETCH

How about the time required for translation?

 

[Phase2]

But she has a blue check mark!!!

 

[T.Lex]

STREEEEEEEEEEEEETCH

How about the time required for translation?

I believe Zelensky is fluent in English, and Trump is conversationally understandable in it.

Regardless, you're right. Even if fluent in the language of the conversation, world leaders will also have an interpreter confirm their understanding.

This is going to totally be a cluster foxtrot.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ukraine(with hat in hand): those missiles you're sending us will help out a lot
Trump "The Don": Yeah, I need you to do me a favor.

Was Trump just ignoring Ukraine, or was there something implied?

 

[T.Lex]

Ukraine(with hat in hand): those missiles you're sending us will help out a lot
Trump "The Don": Yeah, I need you to do me a favor.

Was Trump just ignoring Ukraine, or was there something implied?

It really doesn't matter.

It isn't illegal or unlawful for POTUS to leverage foreign policy aid.

It is a political issue; it is not a crime.

Again - take Biden out of the equation and if it was a request for an investigation about corruption of a regular US citizen, would it be a crime or impeachable offense?

I truly don't see how.

And, just to be clear, this is not a defense of Trump. He remains a bad leader and a worse human being. My argument is in defense of the office of POTUS.

For as irrational and unprincipled as Obama's foreign policy was, that didn't make those decisions impeachable offenses.

 

[HoughMade]

Yeah...every time they come up with some grand allegation against Trump....I always feel weird that intellectual honesty forces me to defend him even though, on a personal level, I don't care for him.

...not that I wouldn't vote for him against any of the current crop of leftists.

 

[KG1]

Ukraine(with hat in hand): those missiles you're sending us will help out a lot
Trump "The Don": Yeah, I need you to do me a favor.

Was Trump just ignoring Ukraine, or was there something implied?

I find your implied paraphrasing interpretation to be a biased embellishment.

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah...every time they come up with some grand allegation against Trump....I always feel weird that intellectual honesty forces me to defend him even though, on a personal level, I don't care for him.

...not that I wouldn't vote for him against any of the current crop of leftists.

It seems like there are more fertile areas for the Dems to sow (like the overlap of his presidential decisions and his business interests), but instead they go after... this?

I guess the other stuff would be too much actual work.

The impeachment of Bill Clinton was thin (although at the time I was heartily in favor of it), but this seems ridiculous.

 

[Alpo]

It really doesn't matter.

It isn't illegal or unlawful for POTUS to leverage foreign policy aid.

It is a political issue; it is not a crime.

Again - take Biden out of the equation and if it was a request for an investigation about corruption of a regular US citizen, would it be a crime or impeachable offense?

I truly don't see how.

And, just to be clear, this is not a defense of Trump. He remains a bad leader and a worse human being. My argument is in defense of the office of POTUS.

For as irrational and unprincipled as Obama's foreign policy was, that didn't make those decisions impeachable offenses.

There is the law, and then there are "optics". Biden doesn't look good in this situation because sonny boy is working in an Eastern Bloc country for LOTS of money and no previous experience in the field. Trump looks bad because he's soliciting a foreign entity to investigate a US citizen for his personal, political reasons.

In the grand scheme of things, the cumulative weight of all the dirt associated with Trump will tip most independent voters against him.

 

[HoughMade]

It seems like there are more fertile areas for the Dems to sow (like the overlap of his presidential decisions and his business interests), but instead they go after... this?

I guess the other stuff would be too much actual work.

The impeachment of Bill Clinton was thin (although at the time I was heartily in favor of it), but this seems ridiculous.

Well, Clinton did, indisputably, lie under oath...but whether it was worth it to go after him in an official manner rather than just using the ammunition he provided politically....as time goes on, I am less and less enamored of that decision.

Truth be told, both sides are well versed in collateral attacks on the presidency, but the last 3 years....the collateral attacks that go to [STRIKE]11[/STRIKE] 675.

 

[T.Lex]

There is the law, and then there are "optics". Biden doesn't look good in this situation because sonny boy is working in an Eastern Bloc country for LOTS of money and no previous experience in the field. Trump looks bad because he's soliciting a foreign entity to investigate a US citizen for his personal, political reasons.

In the grand scheme of things, the cumulative weight of all the dirt associated with Trump will tip most independent voters against him.

Yes, in the absence of actual efforts to impeach.

For Dems to try to formally impeach Trump is inviting their own electoral demise in the next cycle. It will give Trump the ongoing opportunity to point out he didn't actually do anything wrong, and he'd be correct.

Pelosi should declare victory and end the impeachment effort. She's removed Biden from primary relevance and further stained Trump's reputation.

 

[Alpo]

Well, Clinton did, indisputably, lie under oath...but whether it was worth it to go after him in an official manner rather than just using the ammunition he provided politically....as time goes on, I am less and less enamored of that decision.

Truth be told, both sides are well versed in collateral attacks on the presidency, but the last 3 years....the collateral attacks that go to [STRIKE]11[/STRIKE] 675.

There are any number of bad actors in history who got to their positions of power and committed atrocities because those who should have acted stood by and watched.

With Trump's personality, there is little doubt that he could be as bad as that, given the opportunity.

 

[mmpsteve]

In the grand scheme of things, the cumulative weight of all the dirt associated with Trump will tip most independent voters against him.

Correct. The 3 year loading of the crap onto Trump is indeed getting very heavy, and many simpletons in this country will fall for it. Kind of makes an honest debate on the issues near impossible. Mission accomplished!

.

 

[Alpo]

Yes. They continue to fall for it. But most Trump supporters have a hard time with ethics in any event.

 

[T.Lex]

There are any number of bad actors in history who got to their positions of power and committed atrocities because those who should have acted stood by and watched.

With Trump's personality, there is little doubt that he could be as bad as that, given the opportunity.

Indeed - he could be.

Which makes it incomprehensible that those that might stand against him are tilting at imaginary windmills, rather than the real ones!

While the latter might not really make any difference, at least it is nominally less crazy!

 

[Alpo]

Before the modern cell phone, we had professional photographers. With cameras embedded in today's phone, everyone thinks they are Ansel Adams (when they bother to take pictures of something other than themselves.)

Similarly, with the development of the internet, so goes whatever level of professionalism that may have existed in prior times with the Fourth Estate.