The [Current Year] General Political/Salma Hayek discussion thread, part 4!!!

[Hawkeye]

Hmm. Losing the argument so you try a twist and dodge. Kind of like someone else we know.


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[Alpo]

"We"? You believe everyone else thinks Pochanontas is more important than the national debt, which Trump is not talking about? Do you get your cues from the media or the tweeter in chief?

Another wasted news cycle on jibberish.

 

[Trigger Time]

I still hope he decides not to. Pardon himself and step out. Good of the country. He's a family man. He's got his businesses to run. So long and thanks for all the fish.

Pence-Haley 2020 (although Pence would not be my preferred top line, he is next up).

He hasn't done anything wrong why would he need to pardon himself? I think every modern president secretly pardons themselves anyways. I really do.
It's for the good of the country for trump to keep running it.

 

[Trigger Time]

Well, many times in my adult life, I've been thankful for gridlock. "Don't just do something, stand there."

I hate how the word "compromise" has become verboten in politics. It doesn't mean to compromise one's principles. It means to compromise on specific piece of legislation (or rule, or whatever) because something is better than nothing. If nothing is better than something in any given situation, then government shouldn't be involved at all!

The best ought not be the enemy of the good.

By the way - another 2 years of gridlock with a Dem majority in the House might make it MUCH easier for Trump to get re-elected, or for Pence to get elected.

There wont be any Democrat majority

 

[Trigger Time]

The most compelling evidence I've seen is aboriginal migration to America. Also some of the earliest tribes in north America expanded outward from the great lakes area

 

[mmpsteve]

OK sir, you asked, so here's the money. OBamaCare has cost me about $20,000.00 per year since it's insideous inception. I actually pay directly for employees, and their families healthcare. Do you? I pay for three 55 year old women's MATERNITY care; oh, and their post-mentapausal birth control; oh, and for their abortions, nationwide. Do you? All this money could have been spent on expansion of my business, purchases of new equipment (economic activity that benifits many), or providing for my retirement, so that I don't have to depend on the state for my well being. If you add up what it's cost me, and multiply that by about 50 MILLION small businesses, then yes, I stand by my assertion of the biggest, most devious lie in history, IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC IMPACT. The fact that the Dems rammed it down our throats with the mantra of 'pass it so we can find out what's in it', turned my heart to stone forever. All this said, I'll ask you once again, based on your responses; were you a recipiant of all the 'goodness' that ObamaCare' brought upon the masses?
Respectfully submitted,
And yes, it is past Turkey time. You should try it, might help you.

Show me the money, Jerry.

You've got the party line down pat, but you haven't put any numbers to it.

Plus Printcraft beat you to the snark.

"Biggest lie told by mankind?" You need to ease up on the Wild Turkey. I can name a handful bigger without a sweat.

 

[mmpsteve]

Oh, and by all means, bring up the national debt, after Obama. That'll gain you much respect.

 

[Alpo]

I don't begrudge Obama deficit spending during the worst recession since the 1930's. I believe Keynes was mostly correct. And I also recognize that the economy regained it's footing because of that spending and the significant actions by the Federal Reserve. Still, we aren't the country we were in the 1990's. Very few have extra income to spend on non-essentials. But, to some degree, the non-essential spending in the 1990's was fueled with consumer debt and home refinancings. So the surplus of available "income" for the average family was rather ephemeral.

And now we've reduced taxes, which everyone really enjoys. No one likes to pay taxes. But it is one of the factors affecting debt. If you believed in 2012 that debt mattered, why doesn't it matter in 2018 when it is even higher than it was back then?

Healthcare costs, nationally, have risen from an average of $15,600 per family in 2008 to $28,200 in 2018 (Milliman index). The economy is at "full employment" largely as a result of increases in headcount in the medical sector of the economy. So, have your health care costs increased? Yes. How much is Obamacare and how much is due to other factors? I don't know. I'm not a health care guy. What I do know is that employees AND employers are paying higher amounts for health services than 10 years ago. Again, I don't know how much is attributable to Obamacare or the medical industry itself.

The growth in healthcare costs is not sustainable. Something has to give. I don't know what is likely to happen, but at my age, I'm prepared not to have much available to me as the years roll by, and that's OK with me. We spend too much on old people now. It will only get worse.

 

[actaeon277]

Very few have extra income to spend on non-essentials

I think many people spend money on air conditioning, cable TV, cell phones, unlimited data plans, multiple computers and "pads", etc.

those are far from "essential"

 

[mmpsteve]

Wow. Are you kidding me? Your response sounds straight out of academia 101. Health care cost increases before Obama averaged 5 to 10 % annual. I didn't like it, but it was manageable. You say very few have extra income to spend; and you mention some academic theories. I'm going to stop here, because I don't want to get banned, but your response is rubbish. In terms of the economy 'regaining it's footing' due to obama spending, I'm sure there's some Solyndra execs clapping for you right now. Carry on with your dementia, and best of luck to you. Still waiting on the answer to the question I asked twice.

I don't begrudge Obama deficit spending during the worst recession since the 1930's. I believe Keynes was mostly correct. And I also recognize that the economy regained it's footing because of that spending and the significant actions by the Federal Reserve. Still, we aren't the country we were in the 1990's. Very few have extra income to spend on non-essentials. But, to some degree, the non-essential spending in the 1990's was fueled with consumer debt and home refinancings. So the surplus of available "income" for the average family was rather ephemeral.

And now we've reduced taxes, which everyone really enjoys. No one likes to pay taxes. But it is one of the factors affecting debt. If you believed in 2012 that debt mattered, why doesn't it matter in 2018 when it is even higher than it was back then?

Healthcare costs, nationally, have risen from an average of $15,600 per family in 2008 to $28,200 in 2018 (Milliman index). The economy is at "full employment" largely as a result of increases in headcount in the medical sector of the economy. So, have your health care costs increased? Yes. How much is Obamacare and how much is due to other factors? I don't know. I'm not a health care guy. What I do know is that employees AND employers are paying higher amounts for health services than 10 years ago. Again, I don't know how much is attributable to Obamacare or the medical industry itself.

The growth in healthcare costs is not sustainable. Something has to give. I don't know what is likely to happen, but at my age, I'm prepared not to have much available to me as the years roll by, and that's OK with me. We spend too much on old people now. It will only get worse.

 

[Trigger Time]

Alpo thats a stretch even for you man. I know you're wiser than to believe all that.
I'm no financial expert but Obama screwed our economy. Killed jobs, hell he lost faith in even trying to bring jobs and industry back. He said where are they gonna come from thin air?
While he was busy running around trying to mushroom stamp the Obama name on as many "firsts" as he could the country was bleeding out. He just was an absent president on so many economic issues. Was the recession Obama's fault? No It wasnt. But it didnt need to slide so far down and it didnt need to last as long as it did. Bush has blame in it too.
But Obama was a complete bs'er and loser and a bigger liar than people claim trump is. Obama was just smooth

 

[mmpsteve]

I didn't find it smooth when I was bent over for Bamacare.

Alpo thats a stretch even for you man. I know you're wiser than to believe all that.
I'm no financial expert but Obama screwed our economy. Killed jobs, hell he lost faith in even trying to bring jobs and industry back. He said where are they gonna come from thin air?
While he was busy running around trying to mushroom stamp the Obama name on as many "firsts" as he could the country was bleeding out. He just was an absent president on so many economic issues. Was the recession Obama's fault? No It wasnt. But it didnt need to slide so far down and it didnt need to last as long as it did. Bush has blame in it too.
But Obama was a complete bs'er and loser and a bigger liar than people claim trump is. Obama was just smooth

 

[Alpo]

Wow. Are you kidding me? Your response sounds straight out of academia 101. Health care cost increases before Obama averaged 5 to 10 % annual. I didn't like it, but it was manageable. You say very few have extra income to spend; and you mention some academic theories. I'm going to stop here, because I don't want to get banned, but your response is rubbish. In terms of the economy 'regaining it's footing' due to obama spending, I'm sure there's some Solyndra execs clapping for you right now. Carry on with your dementia, and best of luck to you. Still waiting on the answer to the question I asked twice.

It is impossible to say anything to a man whose mind is made up. A compounding rate of growth over any period is generally estimable with the rule of 72's. Growth rate of 6%? It takes 12 years to double. Growth of 10% doubles in 7 years. Your health care cost....if you are average employer...over the Bush years would have doubled.

Insult all you want. I don't know you and could care less.

Am I a beneficiary of Obama's health care plan? No. And if you bothered to read more than vent your spleen on this site, you'd already know that answer.

Source: Kaiser

 

[Alpo]

Alpo thats a stretch even for you man. I know you're wiser than to believe all that.
I'm no financial expert but Obama screwed our economy. Killed jobs, hell he lost faith in even trying to bring jobs and industry back. He said where are they gonna come from thin air?
While he was busy running around trying to mushroom stamp the Obama name on as many "firsts" as he could the country was bleeding out. He just was an absent president on so many economic issues. Was the recession Obama's fault? No It wasnt. But it didnt need to slide so far down and it didnt need to last as long as it did. Bush has blame in it too.
But Obama was a complete bs'er and loser and a bigger liar than people claim trump is. Obama was just smooth

Clinton and Bush allowed the banks to get out of control with sub-prime lending. THAT killed the economy well before Obama became president. Obama saved the banks and let the homeowners get destroyed. I don't applaud that, but he didn't create the mess.

The rest of his administration is what I would expect of a novice political hack. Not someone who is transformational.

Those who blame Obama for the state of the economy don't really understand economics AT ALL. I'm Keynesian. I'm not a supply sider. Supply side economics has never worked.

 

[jamil]

The most recent evidence points to skeletal remains in Peru that are 14,500 years old (give or take). North America might have been inaccessible from Russia. American Indians are no more "indigenous" than your or I. They didn't spontaneously pop from the soil. While they may claim ownership due to time held, it seems that we are all cousins of a group out of Africa. I wonder how much African DNA exists in the tribes.

It really has no practical value where the migration occurred other than to improve the accuracy of the migration patterns.

Agreed, no one on this hemisphere is "indigenous". But doesn't stop the bat **** crazy virtue-signalers from pontificating the self-righteous indigenous land acknowledgements.

[video=youtube;lHbvedl6qLI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHbvedl6qLI[/video]

What? Only in the fringes of the left will you find such impractical virtue-chasing such as this. It's even worse than protesting to raise awareness. You know, let's not do anything that might solve the problem, let's just do the absolute least we can do. So we'll hold up signs, maybe chant a little, and hope we're caught on TV being virtuous for our cause, because we rose awareness.

So to get this straight, they believe this land was stolen, and so, every time they use land they believe was stolen, they make this speech, and that somehow makes it all better. If they really think they're using stolen land, why are they still using it? Why do they think land acknowledgements correct that wrong. There's no virtue gained in this. It makes them look worse. The other people can just say, I didn't know, or yeah, so what? But land acknowledgements? That's some virtuous **** right there man.

If you really think the land isn't yours to use, then demand the land be given back. Give it back to the people who took it from someone or something else. Pretty sure land was here long before humans.

 

[Alpo]

I don't like the radical crazies any more than you do. What I really don't like is the screaming radical crazies. You'd never catch me at a demonstration of that type, even though at some base level I might agree that a legitimate grievance could possibly exist. You don't win me over by screaming about my over-privileged life. I've had a job since 15 and grew up working for everything I ever owned.

I was thinking tonight that we used to have a society that might be characterized as consisting of two parts: blame and shame. I think blame is a trait we learned from the English. Someone is always at fault. Someone needs to be punished. But we also tempered that with our own form of morality and understood that wrong actions were shameful and if we were honest and repentent, we felt that shame.

Something has changed. We now have victims and blame...but few ever feel ashamed. Why is that? What happened?

 

[jamil]

"We"? You believe everyone else thinks Pochanontas is more important than the national debt, which Trump is not talking about? Do you get your cues from the media or the tweeter in chief?

Another wasted news cycle on jibberish.

In other non-jibberish news, trickle down economics confirmed. Taxes were cut. Economy's booming. Record tax revenues collected. Rich getting richer. Poor getting richer too, but not nearly on the same slope, so wealth envy ensues. Would be great if they'd cut some spending.

 

[Alpo]

Too early to make that claim methinks. We need another year or two.....and I'm giving you a mulligan on the data so far under Trump.

 

[nonobaddog]

You can learn a lot about the economy from the liberal media. Just read what they say, realize it is all BS, and pretty much the opposite is the truth.

 

[jamil]

I don't like the radical crazies any more than you do. What I really don't like is the screaming radical crazies. You'd never catch me at a demonstration of that type, even though at some base level I might agree that a legitimate grievance could possibly exist. You don't win me over by screaming about my over-privileged life. I've had a job since 15 and grew up working for everything I ever owned.

I was thinking tonight that we used to have a society that might be characterized as consisting of two parts: blame and shame. I think blame is a trait we learned from the English. Someone is always at fault. Someone needs to be punished. But we also tempered that with our own form of morality and understood that wrong actions were shameful and if we were honest and repentent, we felt that shame.

Something has changed. We now have victims and blame...but few ever feel ashamed. Why is that? What happened?

Why? I have a theory. Let me see if I can work it out here. My theory is that Postmodernism flipped (swapped) the shame triggers. What I mean by that, people feel ashamed for breaking the social rules. That circuitry is pretty much built in though not always activated.

Traditionally in the West, personal responsibility, self-reliance, charity, couth behavior, treat others like you want to be treated were the values. You fall short of those and you felt shame.

So now that the values have been effectively deconstructed, one side holds the other to different standards. To the right, who have not yet given up on traditional values, the left should feel ashamed of violating the right's values based on personal responsibility. But the left doesn't hold those values. They won't feel shame for breaking them, they'll likely feel pretty good about it.

To the left, the right should feel ashamed of violating the left's values based on collective responsibility. But, like the left, they're not going to care about breaking the left's values, and will probably feel pretty good about it.

This doesn't explain Trump, but it explains a lot of why neither side feels ashamed of what the other side accuses. For example, I don't feel ashamed of my white male privilege, and I don't think people should feel shame for that. It's possible they should feel shame for lying on applications, claiming they're a protected minority class when they're not.