That VETO stamp is gonna get pretty worn out over the next 2 years...

[MisterChester]

And you're doubting this why? And please understand that invoking any "Lincoln speak" will surely evoke a thread jack. Just sayin'.

I don't actually doubt it, I'm saying by the logic of not living through it means you don't know about it, which obviously isn't true.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I wasn't born yet. Was anyone on INGO alive during the Lincoln years? By that logic many people on here don't know what they're talking about because they haven't lived it.

I'm not saying you don't have a valid opinion because you weren't there... I'm just saying that maybe, just maybe, it might be worth asking those who WERE there... They might have some info that might be worth considering...

After all, if we're talking about a robbery that occurred in Indy - it MIGHT make sense to ask our resident detective that works that stuff (BBI) about it. He MIGHT just have something worth listening to.

America OVERWHELMINGLY threw Carter out on his ass. He was, by all accounts, a very honest, well meaning person. Far more so than many of the current crop of folks of either Party. Maybe listening to some of those who participated in voting him out of office MIGHT provide some information that the government schools haven't provided you. Maybe there might be an explanation in that as to WHY the country was so sick of him.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Pres says he told Senate Dems yesterday he would veto an Iran sanctions bill. Says he asked them to "hold off for a few months."

 

[jbombelli]

I'm not saying you don't have a valid opinion because you weren't there... I'm just saying that maybe, just maybe, it might be worth asking those who WERE there... They might have some info that might be worth considering...

After all, if we're talking about a robbery that occurred in Indy - it MIGHT make sense to ask our resident detective that works that stuff (BBI) about it. He MIGHT just have something worth listening to.

America OVERWHELMINGLY threw Carter out on his ass. He was, by all accounts, a very honest, well meaning person. Far more so than many of the current crop of folks of either Party. Maybe listening to some of those who participated in voting him out of office MIGHT provide some information that the government schools haven't provided you. Maybe there might be an explanation in that as to WHY the country was so sick of him.

Just thinking out loud.

Gas crunch, hostages, "malaise", advice to just wear a sweater in your house because energy prices were too high, he was attacked by a rabbit (literally), gave up the Panama Canal...

Lots of reasons people got sick of him.

 

[jamil]

You forgot about stagflation. Double digit interest rates and double digit inflation. Carter was another ideologue who thought that if things weren't working right, throw more ideology at it.

 

[Twangbanger]

If Carter were running today, he'd win. For the reason why, scroll a few posts up. People are not the same anymore. Reality is not reality...and perception is not reality...YOUTUBE is reality.

Back when Carter was President, Americans would still fire a President because he did not get results. That's not true anymore. American people no longer hold Presidents personally responsible for prosperity, greatness, and JOBS. They just want a President who agrees with their personal vision of "who gets the blame." Chester thinks it's the fault of corporations, Citizens United, and the Koch Brothers. That's what YOUTUBE says. And how would they know any different? The fact that the nation still oscillated back and forth between R and D Presidents since then, just proves to them that "both parties are equally responsible."

Then - they'll come to INGO, and our museum-exhibit of Dale Gribble malcontents, Southpark fans, pot-smokers and cop-haters here (most of whom never post about anything related to guns) will readily reinforce that view for them.

For people who got their first job while Obama was President, everything is hunky-dory to them. It's all the better that they have ever known. That the labor-force participation rate is at a low point, and real income has not risen since about the time Carter was in office, is irrelevant to them...because they weren't alive, didn't experience it, and the history book/YOUTUBE don't teach it. People who never enjoyed the former prosperity of America, first-hand, personally, will never "miss" what they're missing. Why would these people possibly think otherwise? They have no historical context of what America has lost. And to the extent that they do understand the concept, they think gay marriage and Casino Boats, somehow, makes up for it.

The Prez just has to "resonate" with these people; he does not actually have to FIX anything. To the extent that something does need fixing, if he makes a good speech deploring the "evil" forces who are "responsible" for it, he/she will get four more years at the trough.

 

[Hardscrable]

If Carter were running today, he'd win. For the reason why, scroll a few posts up. People are not the same anymore. Reality is not reality...and perception is not reality...YOUTUBE is reality.

Back when Carter was President, Americans would still fire a President because he did not get results. That's not true anymore. American people no longer hold Presidents personally responsible for prosperity, greatness, and JOBS. They just want a President who agrees with their personal vision of "who gets the blame." Chester thinks it's the fault of corporations, Citizens United, and the Koch Brothers. That's what YOUTUBE says. And how would they know any different? The fact that the nation still oscillated back and forth between R and D Presidents since then, just proves to them that "both parties are equally responsible."

Then - they'll come to INGO, and our museum-exhibit of Dale Gribble malcontents, Southpark fans, pot-smokers and cop-haters here (most of whom never post about anything related to guns) will readily reinforce that view for them.

For people who got their first job while Obama was President, everything is hunky-dory to them. It's all the better that they have ever known. That the labor-force participation rate is at a low point, and real income has not risen since about the time Carter was in office, is irrelevant to them...because they weren't alive, didn't experience it, and the history book/YOUTUBE don't teach it. Peoplewho never enjoyed the former prosperity of America, first-hand, personally, will never "miss" what they're missing. Why would these people possibly think otherwise? They have no historical context of what America has lost. And to the extent that they do understand the concept, they think gay marriage and Casino Boats, somehow, makes up for it.

The Prez just has to "resonate" with these people; he does not actually have to FIX anything. To the extent that something does need fixing, if he makes a good speech deploring the "evil" forces who are "responsible" for it, he/she will get four more years at the trough.

^^^^^ Well said.

 

[Hardscrable]

Ahhhhhhhhh yes...the Carter years. Being self-employed and paying in excess of 20% for operating loan to run the business & acquire needed machinery & assets, mortgage interest rates in the mid-to-upper teens, inflation in the 10-14% range...what was not to like (apply purple ) ?

 

[hornadylnl]

If Carter were running today, he'd win. For the reason why, scroll a few posts up. People are not the same anymore. Reality is not reality...and perception is not reality...YOUTUBE is reality.

Back when Carter was President, Americans would still fire a President because he did not get results. That's not true anymore. American people no longer hold Presidents personally responsible for prosperity, greatness, and JOBS. They just want a President who agrees with their personal vision of "who gets the blame." Chester thinks it's the fault of corporations, Citizens United, and the Koch Brothers. That's what YOUTUBE says. And how would they know any different? The fact that the nation still oscillated back and forth between R and D Presidents since then, just proves to them that "both parties are equally responsible."

Then - they'll come to INGO, and our museum-exhibit of Dale Gribble malcontents, Southpark fans, pot-smokers and cop-haters here (most of whom never post about anything related to guns) will readily reinforce that view for them.

For people who got their first job while Obama was President, everything is hunky-dory to them. It's all the better that they have ever known. That the labor-force participation rate is at a low point, and real income has not risen since about the time Carter was in office, is irrelevant to them...because they weren't alive, didn't experience it, and the history book/YOUTUBE don't teach it. People who never enjoyed the former prosperity of America, first-hand, personally, will never "miss" what they're missing. Why would these people possibly think otherwise? They have no historical context of what America has lost. And to the extent that they do understand the concept, they think gay marriage and Casino Boats, somehow, makes up for it.

The Prez just has to "resonate" with these people; he does not actually have to FIX anything. To the extent that something does need fixing, if he makes a good speech deploring the "evil" forces who are "responsible" for it, he/she will get four more years at the trough.

If expecting republicans to govern by their professed principles makes me a malcontent, I'll wear the badge proudly.

 

[RockofStrength]

If Carter were running today, he'd win. For the reason why, scroll a few posts up. People are not the same anymore. Reality is not reality...and perception is not reality...YOUTUBE is reality.

Snipped for space.

There is no longer any living memory of the truest greatness of the United States. That ended around the mid 1800's, after which point the social engineers and corporations (along with the government they paid for) were organized sufficiently to basically run the show. Yes FDR was bad, and so was the Fed, and so was Carter and so is Obama, but if we're gonna get down to killing the disease instead of looking at different severity levels of the symptoms we have to kill it at the source.

 

[mrjarrell]

Republicans and democrats are more than satisfied with the status quo.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Snipped for space.

There is no longer any living memory of the truest greatness of the United States. That ended around the mid 1800's, after which point the social engineers and corporations (along with the government they paid for) were organized sufficiently to basically run the show. Yes FDR was bad, and so was the Fed, and so was Carter and so is Obama, but if we're gonna get down to killing the disease instead of looking at different severity levels of the symptoms we have to kill it at the source.

"Greatness" is subjective. Had I lived in the 1850's, or prior, I wouldn't see anything "great" about the United States.

 

[RockofStrength]

"Greatness" is subjective. Had I lived in the 1850's, or prior, I wouldn't see anything "great" about the United States.

I would argue that even with the foul legacy of racism and outright enslavement, at least a part of the U.S. population was truly free before that point. After the 1850's or so, everyone was carefully, delicately put into mental chains far stronger than those of any plantation slave. In that sense I would say that our greatness as a nation was indeed at its zenith prior to the Civil War despite slavery.

 

[Arthur Dent]

One of these things is not like the other....

They are all rights, what makes one different?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I would argue that even with the foul legacy of racism and outright enslavement, at least a part of the U.S. population was truly free before that point. After the 1850's or so, everyone was carefully, delicately put into mental chains far stronger than those of any plantation slave. In that sense I would say that our greatness as a nation was indeed at its zenith prior to the Civil War despite slavery.

Ignoring slavery, what part of the U.S. population was truly free prior to 1850?

 

[jamil]

They are all rights, what makes one different?

Context, man. You're asking a question about apples whe the context is about oranges.

 

[mrjarrell]

Ignoring slavery, what part of the U.S. population was truly free prior to 1850?

Not most of the Scots/Irish in this country. Or the American Indians.

 

[ViperJock]

Not most of the Scots/Irish in this country. Or the American Indians.

Indeed anyone not distinctly of English descent was a second class citizen. Racism has always and will always exist in some people.

 

[hornadylnl]

Indeed anyone not distinctly of English descent was a second class citizen. Racism has always and will always exist in some people.

And people look on those days as the glory days.

 

[RockofStrength]

Ignoring slavery, what part of the U.S. population was truly free prior to 1850?

Not most of the Scots/Irish in this country. Or the American Indians.

Indeed anyone not distinctly of English descent was a second class citizen. Racism has always and will always exist in some people.

I would argue that racism remains alive and well in our United States, we've just exchanged chains and whips or signs with "help wanted, no Irish need apply" for welfare programs and mind-numbing entertainments and consumerism. And that's not even getting into racial divides like those shown in the Rodney King riots or the recent Ferguson debacle. When discussing freedom, I wasn't even considering racial divides because the damage inflicted then has been continued and exacerbated by keeping those same minority groups in darkness and it seemed like a wash to me. It would be like comparing the tyranny of 1984 with the tyranny of Fahrenheit 451, which seems fruitless.

Rather, the lack of an aristocracy or other artificial bar to success and the ability to educate oneself and act on that education with few limitations to me speaks of true freedom. Tocqueville mentioned this himself when he wrote:

Among the novel objects that attracted my attention during my stay in the United States, nothing struck me more forcibly than the general equality of condition among the people. I readily discovered the prodigious influence that this primary fact exercises on the whole course of society; it gives a peculiar direction to public opinion and a peculiar tenor to the laws; it imparts new maxims to the governing authorities and peculiar habits to the governed.

It is this this freedom, which is most vital to overcoming all other oppressions including racial or religious barriers, which I feel we have slowly lost since the Post-Civil War era began.

Today, I'm looking at a Bush/Clinton Presidential dynasty, ever increasing wealth and power being concentrated into the hands of corporations and government officials while the "rank and file" are being continually dumbed down through deliberate mass population control. We are richer materially than people prior to the 1850's, and we have greater technical knowledge and proficiency, but the freedom to act, think, and behave as we see fit has been greatly curtailed compared to that time.