Tell Me Again How Awful HOA’s Are?

[Lpherr]

Shadow, they are coming for your peace now that wuwho flu taught them they can work anywhere and your solace is about to end…

My chunk of land, will never be part of a HOA. Even if they were to develop around me, my land isn't theirs.
It would be wise, not to develop a division, of any kind, adjacent to my property. Of course, the closest property line, is a quarter mile away in any direction. But my shop gets pretty noisy when I'm working on projects.

 

[jkaetz]

An HOA is voluntary, no one is ever forced to join one, shouldn’t people have the freedom to join one? Just as most here relish the freedom not to join one?

You keep saying this, it is an oversimplification and disingenuous. Yes, you can choose not to buy/live in a house under and HOA, but the HOA is not optional. Second, refusing to buy/live in a house under the rule of an HOA significantly reduces your home buying options. Name a new development that does not have an HOA.

 

[Shadow01]

Their homes are the largest form of savings for most people for retirement or to pass on to their children…

Many families make hundreds of thousands of dollars on their homes in their lifetimes…

I guess my access to having a future lump sum pension and my 401k along with personal savings put me in a different mindset when I was house hunting 30 years ago. I’ve never considered a home as a primary means of cash flow.

 

[BugI02]

But as long as I have to live in a subdivision I want some way to keep the outliers under control…

The truth will out

 

[jamil]

A Karen can't just get on the board they have to be elected. During our neighborhoods last meeting we had candidates come up and tell a little about themselves and why they wanted to be on the board, there were two that talked a bit Karen-ish and they didn't get voted on, you can control who gets to be on there and it's not a lifetime appointment lol.

Yes. Of course. I got elected to one. There are two kinds of people attracted to running to be on HOA boards. Karens and anti-Karens.

The neighborhood had, I don’t remember what they called it but it was functionally districts in the neighborhood. Each district elected a board member and then there were some at large members. A friend of ours across the street was on the board but had to resign because of scheduling. She recommended me and I agreed to serve so I was elected. I was there just to vote against any new restrictions or dues increase. But mostly the people who wanted to be on the board ended up on it. Not that many people wanted to be on it.

This was 30 years ago so we didn’t call them Karens. We called them busybodies. And they were many. Inthink there may have been one or two other anti-Karens.

 

[jamil]

Once again. Can the board change that agreement? If the board does change that agreement is that not telling someone how to live?

It is an agreement, I'll agree. I'll disagree that if that agreement changes it remains an agreement. And you might be right on those disagreeing, I don't and haven't lived in an HOA. I do have friends and family that do and have heard from them. A person does not have to experience something to have an opinion or knowledge of said thing.

Here is something a family member experienced. When moving into the HOA, off street but street adjacent parking was allowed with no limits as long as there was a parking space that was not lawn ie gravel/asphalt/concrete/railroad ties(yes seriously his driveway was railroad ties, when it needed repaired I won't even go into the hoops required by the HOA). Later it was changed where street adjacent parking was allowed for residents vehicles with a HOA sticker, but required a permit for visitors during certain months, at the time each household could apply and pay for a number of yearly permits, then that was changed to weekly then daily permits. Then residents vehicles were required to have a permit, sticker or no. Not what was agreed to when moving in.

It remains an agreement if the HOA can’t change the bylaws without the whole neighborhood voting on it, and you agreed to those terms.

But, if you vote no, you are indeed being told to live in a way you don’t agree with.

 

[BugI02]

You ever try to get a city to do anything? Heck they fail in tearing down the derelict houses. Not trusting that to the city…

You just need to live in a smaller and more well-heeled city

You chose to live in a city that has ineffective code enforcement, no one made you do it (did I get the tone correct on that)

 

[jamil]

At this point I am not replying anymore unless it is a new point we have not covered. I know CM wants is to not keep beating the dead horse threads, so I acquiesce to him. Yes, I surrendered my freedom to keep this up to keep in CM’s good graces… LOL

I haven’t seen an answer to this so I’ll ask it. If you’ve already answered just point it out where.

Do you think HOA’s should be limited to what they can require by law? If so, what limits? Where would you draw the line and and say an HOA cannot seek to do that?

 

[Lpherr]

We find that houses in HOAs have prices that are on average at least 4%, or $13,500, greater than observably similar houses outside of HOAs.

The rise and effects of homeowners associations

In the U.S., nearly 60% of recently built single-family houses, and 80% of houses in new subdivisions, are part of a homeowners association (HOA). We …

www.sciencedirect.com

When someone purchases a house, they will never get a profit on their investment.
After paying the interest, you've already dug a hole. The house will not appreciate the amount of interest paid.
Upkeep and repairs further reduce any profit. Then at the time of sale, you get robbed the capitol gain. That can be avoided, temporarily, but it will eventually catch up. Assuming you live there for anything over 10 years, it will need renovations to give it a fresh look, at a cost of course, or the value will be reduced and again lose money.

A house isn't a retirement fund. It's a place to enjoy life without interference, and to raise a family, without them being told they can't play basketball in the driveway, because a basketball hoop isn't allowed, and the noise might disturb the neighbors.

 

[jamil]

I doubt member approval requires 100% agreement

It was 75% when I was on an HOA board. It just required signatures of someone on the deed/bank note for that home. There was nothing in the original bylaws that limited what they could do as long as it was legal.

 

[eldirector]

You keep saying this, it is an oversimplification and disingenuous. Yes, you can choose not to buy/live in a house under and HOA, but the HOA is not optional. Second, refusing to buy/live in a house under the rule of an HOA significantly reduces your home buying options. Name a new development that does not have an HOA.

No one is required to buy in a new development. Granted, if you want to live in a zero-lot-line, new construction, developer-run neighborhood, you will most likely find Covenants and Restrictions and an HOA to enforce them.

Homes in Indiana with no HOA.
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Indiana/age-10/with_nohoa/hoa-no,known

Not a perfect list, as it includes "No HOA Dues", and has no way to filter for "No CC&R" and no way to select "only in a new development". I selected less than 10 years old to approximate "new development".

Not a lot of homes on that list, but the market is pretty crazy at the moment.

 

[jamil]

When someone purchases a house, they will never get a profit on their investment.
After paying the interest, you've already dug a hole. The house will not appreciate the amount of interest paid.
Upkeep and repairs further reduce any profit. Then at the time of sale, you get robbed the capitol gain. That can be avoided, temporarily, but it will eventually catch up. Assuming you live there for anything over 10 years, it will need renovations to give it a fresh look, at a cost of course, or the value will be reduced and again lose money.

A house isn't a retirement fund. It's a place to enjoy life without interference, and to raise a family, without them being told they can't play basketball in the driveway, because a basketball hoop isn't allowed, and the noise might disturb the neighbors.

Uh, yes, they can too make a profit on a home for which there is a mortgage. If the home’s appreciation rate is above the interest rate, yeah. You can profit.

It’s rare. But. There are some markets where homes appreciate at shocking rates and what the homeowner has paid in principle, interest, taxes, and insurance is less than the appreciated value. My in-laws ran into that situation in Denver. They only owned the home for 3 years though. They lucked out because it was during a time with low rates and then that neighborhood got hot. They were offered way over listing for it.

 

[Lpherr]

Uh, yes, they can too make a profit on a home for which there is a mortgage. If the home’s appreciation rate is above the interest rate, yeah. You can profit.

It’s rare. But. There are some markets where homes appreciate at shocking rates and what the homeowner has paid in principle, interest, taxes, and insurance is less than the appreciated value. My in-laws ran into that situation in Denver. They only owned the home for 3 years though. They lucked out because it was during a time with low rates and then that neighborhood got hot. They were offered way over listing for it.

Making a profit can happen, but that's not the standard.
Someone purchasing a house, shouldn't expect to fall into a scenario as this.

It can work the other way around also.
Pay big money, and the market tanks.

 

[eldirector]

If I sold my home today, I would turn a profit. Inclusive of mortgage and any expenses related specifically to the property (eg: remodeling), but NOT including expenses I would have regardless (eg: utilities).

I know of quite a few other examples in my circle of family and friends.

Just did a very rough calc to confirm. Certainly not doubling my money, but firmly in the black. Certainly different than renting, as there would be ZERO profit (all loss/expense).

Of course, thanks to recent inflation, those dollars are worth quite a bit less.

On the flip side, I know quite a few people that have over-bought, over financed (eg: zero down), borrowed against their home's equity, etc... Most of these folks live month-to-month on a payment plan in all sectors of their life, so "profit" was never really a consideration.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Yes. Of course. I got elected to one. There are two kinds of people attracted to running to be on HOA boards. Karens and anti-Karens.

The neighborhood had, I don’t remember what they called it but it was functionally districts in the neighborhood. Each district elected a board member and then there were some at large members. A friend of ours across the street was on the board but had to resign because of scheduling. She recommended me and I agreed to serve so I was elected. I was there just to vote against any new restrictions or dues increase. But mostly the people who wanted to be on the board ended up on it. Not that many people wanted to be on it.

This was 30 years ago so we didn’t call them Karens. We called them busybodies. And they were many. Inthink there may have been one or two other anti-Karens.

I joined our board as an anti-Karen. I was new to the association and we had an annual meeting. One guy spent 75% of the meeting complaining about nit-picky stuff, and talking about how we need more rules. When the time came for board nominations, he indicated his desire to be on the board. Oh hell no. So I ran just to keep him off the board and I was elected.

So far, 3 of the 5 board members are just like me. Live and let live mentality. The other 2 are more moderate, but definitely not Karen’s. It seems to work for us.

I know everyone’s situation is different but living in a townhouse condo, I wouldn’t have bought my house if there was no HOA. Literally sharing a wall with your neighbor adds a whole new dimension. If I had my own property, and a yard, I most likely would look for something rural with no HOA.

I won’t say that HOA’s are good or bad. Sometimes there is an advantage. Just like any other organization, with the right people in office it can be good. With the wrong people, it can be a nightmare. As long as I have the ability in my own little circle, I will do what I can to silence the Karen’s of the HOA.

 

[jamil]

I joined our board as an anti-Karen. I was new to the association and we had an annual meeting. One guy spent 75% of the meeting complaining about nit-picky stuff, and talking about how we need more rules. When the time came for board nominations, he indicated his desire to be on the board. Oh hell no. So I ran just to keep him off the board and I was elected.

So far, 3 of the 5 board members are just like me. Live and let live mentality. The other 2 are more moderate, but definitely not Karen’s. It seems to work for us.

I know everyone’s situation is different but living in a townhouse condo, I wouldn’t have bought my house if there was no HOA. Literally sharing a wall with your neighbor adds a whole new dimension. If I had my own property, and a yard, I most likely would look for something rural with no HOA.

I won’t say that HOA’s are good or bad. Sometimes there is an advantage. Just like any other organization, with the right people in office it can be good. With the wrong people, it can be a nightmare. As long as I have the ability in my own little circle, I will do what I can to silence the Karen’s of the HOA.

A condo is probably where HOA's make most sense. When I was on the board it was a fairly large subdivision of single family homes. I think there were maybe 15 people or so on the board. Karens had the majority. I don't remember more than me and maybe one or two other people that consistently voted against new restrictions.

 

[HoughMade]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. What's better than an HOA for avoiding goofiness in a neighborhood?

Good neighbors.

Can you control that? Not 100%, but you can dramatically enhance your chances with homework.

Take a look at the surrounding area with a very critical eye. I could not care less about the color of the house, but is the siding clean? Has it been regularly pained or maintained?

What does the lawn look like? Is there grass growing over the sidewalk (I wouldn't live somewhere with a sidewalk, but...)

Are there cars up on blocks perpetually?

Is stuff that should be inside left outside all the time? (Yes, even kid's stuff- that tells a little something about the parents and what the kids will be like in a few years)

When looking at the back yard of the house you are considering, are you paying attention to what is going on in the other back yards?

If there are fences, are they taken care of? What are they made of? (wood fence that is well maintained tells you more than a newish vinyl fence).

Have you looked at the neighborhood on Google earth and Streetview?

Have you joined Nextdoor for the prospective area to see what people are talking about (lurk).

What do the cars look like? Again, not how expensive (OK, that helps) but whatever they are, are they crunched up piles or maintained and used regularly? A 2003 whatever care that is well taken care of tells me more than a new Kia.

If you can get neighbor's names (and that isn't usually to hard to do, hint- online property tax records), you can look up court cases- not just criminal, there usually won't be too many, but collections, foreclosures, etc.

I would rather do my homework and decide whether or not to live there and then take my chances than cede control to the types of people who want that control.

....personally, I would never live in another densely packed subdivision again and that makes a lot of this easier, but that's me.

 

[jamil]

My ideal location is pretty easy to figure out. Stand at the driveway. Any neighbors within a mile that way? Nope. Any neighbors within a mile this way? Nope. Any pig farms within a nose of here? Nope. Okay. Let's look at the place.

 

[Lpherr]

My ideal location is pretty easy to figure out. Stand at the driveway. Any neighbors within a mile that way? Nope. Any neighbors within a mile this way? Nope. Any pig farms within a nose of here? Nope. Okay. Let's look at the place.

That would be ideal, however, you would have to own that mile in each direction. Because, eventually, there will be a neighbor (or ten) filling in that mile. Then it's time to move again.

 

[HoughMade]

It may not be true, but it's said that Daniel Boone moved over the next mountain when it got so he could see the smoke from his nearest neighbor's chimney.

Not practical these days, but even a little space, a couple of acres, makes better neighbors than the proverbial "good fence".