Tariffs on Chinese goods?

[T.Lex]

Grant, for the moment, that the writer knows wherefrom he speaks. Do you think that the SK gov't doesn't know the source of that steel, that it doesn't track commerce with the PRC. So, given that stipulation, would you accept the SK gov't being shocked, shocked that one (or more) of their corporations were assisting in and end run around US sanctions purely for profit? Or would you conclude that the gov't was complicit, even though they are weakening their primary protector from NK and China?

Would it be more effective in squelching this problem to simply apply a broad tariff or spend thousands of man hours researching and documenting each claim of cheating and thousands more arguing with the government in question before implementing some kind of sanctions that the government in question will further tie up in complaints to the WTO. Justice delayed is justice denied, and the damage continues

With allies, there's even more leverage. We would not be limited to the WTO or other means to exact a price for their complicit behavior.

Those dealings are unlikely to be reported, for good or bad. I would suspect horsetrading of other assets (or liabilities) in that situation.

But, let's even lump SK and the TPP countries into "China." That still leaves the EU and our NAFTA partners as not-China. The EU is the one primarily offended, by all appearances.

 

[Alpo]

Interesting to see all the conservative free traders recognizing there is no free market.

 

[Tombs]

Interesting to see all the conservative free traders recognizing there is no free market.

A true free market is ideology asserting its self ahead of reality.

Yes, lets all be slaves to recreational drugs, and let the single corporation producing the drugs be the single corporation producing treatment for the drugs. Once they start threatening supply and prices, it's all over for everyone. (But competition! Yeah no, if you have a major share of the world's wealth, you can buy out any competition before it even sees the market)

All anyone needs to do is remember how things were going with oil before the US became competitive. $4.50 per gallon sure was fun.

 

[BugI02]

With allies, there's even more leverage. We would not be limited to the WTO or other means to exact a price for their complicit behavior.

Those dealings are unlikely to be reported, for good or bad. I would suspect horsetrading of other assets (or liabilities) in that situation.

But, let's even lump SK and the TPP countries into "China." That still leaves the EU and our NAFTA partners as not-China. The EU is the one primarily offended, by all appearances.

In rough numbers, China is responsible for half of world steel production, and they use half of that domestically. So 25% or so of total world production of steel is [STRIKE]marketed[/STRIKE] dumped by the Chinese outside of China. Do you really think because SK or the TPP countries are the only ones currently called out that they are the only ones playing at this game. Your insistence on targeted tariffs is an insistence on meaningful action dying the death of a thousand cuts.

Broad tariffs now, with each country's right to argue their case for why they should be exempted will be the most effective way to target China's predatory business practices as well as questionable practices by others. Irrespective of whether they consider themselves allies, they will be given a chance to prove it

 

[Thor]

Navy, Marine Corps leaders warn that China is 'weaponizing capital' | TheHill

CIA Warns of Extensive Chinese Operation to Infiltrate American Institutions

China?s Long Arm Reaches Into American Campuses ? Foreign Policy

 

[T.Lex]

Navy, Marine Corps leaders warn that China is 'weaponizing capital' | TheHill

That was on my mental list of things to post this morning.

Very interesting comments.

 

[Thor]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-st...-plant-operations-to-handle-demand-1520430223

American Steel and Aluminum plants reopening.

 

[Thor]

Current trade deficit. This is not what open markets and free trade looks like.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/articl...1ZGU1dlV0RXpwdndWNmRNXC91XC9RTGZNaTIrXC8ifQ==

 

[Alpo]

It's what happens when you push jobs offshore.

 

[T.Lex]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...orts-canada-and-mexico-exempted-idUSKCN1GK09C

Quoting people briefed on the plans, AP said countries will be granted exemptions from the tariffs if they can address the threat their exports pose to the United States.

Trump IMHO is treating sovereign nations like labor unions that he's trying to renegotiate contracts with.

T'will be interesting to see how that works for him.

 

[Alpo]

It also depends on how long the subject holds his interest.

At the first mention of "Squirrel!"....well, on to the next tweetstorm.

 

[Xterminator]

China bad on economy,bad for business. NAFTA bad for economy, bad business. I personally know of 2 friends who lost their jobs due to factory moving across the border or China making product cheaper. USA manufacturing is going down & workers lose jobs. Tariff on steel will absolutely help out our steel industry here.

 

[Kutnupe14]

China bad on economy,bad for business. NAFTA bad for economy, bad business. I personally know of 2 friends who lost their jobs due to factory moving across the border or China making product cheaper. USA manufacturing is going down & workers lose jobs. Tariff on steel will absolutely help out our steel industry here.

I agree 100%, but that's not the issue. Tariffs, will absolutely hurt consumers here. It comes down, for me, to the question of whether government should manipulate markets that will essentially force American consumers to buy things at higher prices, to benefit private American business interests?

 

[Jludo]

China bad on economy,bad for business. NAFTA bad for economy, bad business. I personally know of 2 friends who lost their jobs due to factory moving across the border or China making product cheaper. USA manufacturing is going down & workers lose jobs. Tariff on steel will absolutely help out our steel industry here.

It's a case of defuse benefit and concentrated cost. It goes for automation or offshoring jobs. You see 2 friends lose their jobs but you don't see the countless others paying less for a good and having more money to spend elsewhere.

 

[BugI02]

I agree 100%, but that's not the issue. Tariffs, will absolutely hurt consumers here. It comes down, for me, to the question of whether government should manipulate markets that will essentially force American consumers to buy things at higher prices, to benefit private American business interests?

So it's about the price of things? If I can make a cogent enough argument that child labor laws or safety regulations or nondiscrimination requirements increase the cost of my iPhone, it's OK to favor some and be against others?

Holy moral relativism, Batman!

 

[SheepDog4Life]

China's VAT is 17%. They exempt/rebate it on their exports to us and charge it across the board as an tariff on our exports to them.

I'm generally free-trade, but not the "unilateral", only one-way kind.

17% tariff on all Chinese imports to level the field. Ditto for similarly situated VAT tax countries. And, then, negotiate bilateral free-trade from a position of equal footing.

 

[actaeon277]

How is free trade defined?

So, Americans have made the decisions that companies shouldn't pollute (EPA, IDEM), have safe work areas (OSHA, IOSHA), no child labor, etc.
These are good ideas, at least I think so.
I may argue about programs becoming overly large, awkward, and making rules by unelected officials.. but let's leave that for another conversation.
But, those programs do add cost to the product.

But then, we allow another country to sell the same product, less safety for workers, less safety for consumers, polluting at hundreds of times of our "allowable", etc.

And this is free trade?

 

[Kutnupe14]

American Keg Company is the only remaining U.S. manufacturer of stainless steel beer kegs. Despite competition from German and Chinese firms, American Keg has only used domestic steel. But now it’s being punished for this domestic sourcing as Donald Trump’s steel tariffs have forced the business to lay off a third of its workforce.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trump-tariff-layoffs-begin-1521241456

It's a fair bet that these laid off workers in Pottstown, PA probably aren't too happy with the president's plan. It should be interesting to see if Trump is able to keep PA in the next election.

 

[BugI02]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trump-tariff-layoffs-begin-1521241456

It's a fair bet that these laid off workers in Pottstown, PA probably aren't too happy with the president's plan. It should be interesting to see if Trump is able to keep PA in the next election.

Gee, I wonder why AKC is the only keg manufacturer left. You don't suppose the people who were already laid off by other steel working companies will support Trump, do you? And are the tariffs even in place yet? Kinda early to be laying off, unless they just want to blame Trump for something they were planning anyway

But we get the liberal math, like with Carrier. Company backs off from eliminating 2000 jobs, then moves 600 to Mexico anyway. That is then seen as a loss of 600 jobs, not a gain of 1400


ETA: Further research has turned up mentions that AKC laid off the 10 workers "earlier this year" but no specific mention of when. The WSJ article was behind a pay wall, so did't see if that information was mentioned. The CEO of AKC was interviewed on NPR 7 Mar 18 and was already talking about the layoffs in the past tense. He also revealed that his product was already priced higher than imports from China ($115 vs $95) and his business was heavily dependent on craft beer producers who prefer to buy American and are willing to pay a small premium. I find most articles refer back to the NPR interview and could not find any local reporting about when the layoffs occurred

I also found an article in the local paper that indicates the company was formerly called Geemacher and was started by Fox Brewing to make kegs. When it was purchased in 2016 by the current owners it was rechristened American Keg. It had fifteen employees at the time. The referenced layoff reduced its workforce from 30 to 20. The company continues to import kegs in sizes it doesn't manufacture at Pottstown under the Geemacher name (I must assume the cost of that product will also rise) so the economics of this company would seem more complex than the CEO is letting on, and blaming tariffs might make for a good story but not necessarily an accurate one

Pottstown’s American Keg Co. looks to supply craft brewers as the only steel keg manufacturer in the US

 

[rob63]

Generally speaking, I am predisposed to oppose tariffs. However, my consumer experience with Chinese quality control makes me more than a little leery of the idea of driving over bridges made with Chinese steel. I have absolutely no idea how much that is a valid concern, but you get the idea.