Take the Tasers away from 'em

[noname1]

Sounds like you dont know much about electricity.

I know that electricity travels between the probes and is nowhere near deep enough to hit affect the heart. No offense to you, but the ignorance of the general public on Tasers and the the belief that it is somehow analagous to a portable electric chair is part of the problem. I wish they video of officers getting tased would be released to the news so they could show that that people carrying them have been on the business end and it isn't a killer. Honestly I hope to never use mine, but it is just another tool.

 

[E5RANGER375]

People complain about police action shootings. So tazer comes about. Saves the day and everyone adores their arrival. Then skip a couple years, and everyone once more has something else to complain about. Point is, there will always be complaints as we don't have robots as cops and everyone handles situations differently.

Best way to help remedy the problem? Don't get into trouble and your safe. Sure there will mix ups and mistakes, but most likely you won't be part of them. I've yet to find myself on the wrong end of one except for when we had to take them as training.

true to an extent. i obey the laws the best i can, but i DONT do it because im afraid i might get abused by the police. i do it because its right.
the fact that there are REGULAR mixups and abuse by police is not acceptable. the whole "there will always be bad apples" thing doesnt fly with me, when they leave the bad apples in with the good ones. so the best way to remedy the problem is to always do the right thing whether you are a cop, or a private citizen. and if either of those is a bad apple, toss them to the pigs (i realy mean farm pigs, no pun intended)

in this case the department did the right thing. they dont get rid of their own lightly from what ive seen.

 

[Denny347]

Again the coroner is not an expert on electricity, it only takes a one tenth of a milli amp to stop the heart. In addition the sudden violatile force of your heart being tensed can cause heart failure.

It's actually 100mA to stop the heart. Taser operates at 2.1mA. WAY under the threshold of lethal.

Taken from here http://www.durhampolice.com/news/pdf/070921_1.pdf

A primary concern is the amount of electricity that is entering the persons body and if it will affect a
pacemaker or the heart. Voltage describes the electromotive force used to cause electrical current to flow;
current describes the flow of electricity. Joules describes the total amount of energy delivered by 1 watt of
power in 1 second. The threshold in which a cardiac ventricular fibrillation can occur is 10-50 joules; the
taser’s joule output, depending on the device model, is 0.36 or 1.76 joules. FDA approved pacemakers must
undergo testing that demonstrate they can withstand current delivered from an emergency defibrillator. The
TASER system delivers substantially lower levels of energy than the emergency defibrillator which can deliver
up to 400 joules. The information reviewed for the amount of electricity or energy has always been the same
throughout the research.

 

[printcraft]

Sometimes it's Ohm's Law that needs enforced.

Watt?

 

[mrjarrell]

If the tasers have no effect on the heart (which, judging by the fatalities chalked up to them is a falsehood) then why does Taser International recommend against chest shots, as reported by one of the leading law enforcement risk management firms?

via LLRMI

On October 12, 2009, Taser® International issued a training bulletini dealing with the potential impact of Taser® on events ending in cardiac arrest. Although the bulletin details the unlikely prospect of a Taser® deployment leading to cardiac arrest, it does raise the possibility that such an outcome could occur.​

“Should Sudden Cardiac Arrest occur in a scenario involving a TASER® discharge to the chest area – it would place the law enforcement agency, the officer, and TASER® International in the difficult situation of trying to ascertain what role, if any, the TASER® ECD could have played in a unique situation that cannot be replicated in human clinical safety evaluations. In order to reduce the risk of such an event, and in light of the fact that frontal applications of TASER® ECD’s have been found to be more effective when the probes are targeted at the lower torso (engaging the balancing muscles of the pelvic triangle) we have lowered the recommended point of aim from the center of mass to the lower center of mass for frontal discharges. We believe this recommendation will improve the effective use of TASER® ECDs while also further increasing safety margins and enhancing the ability to defend such cases in post event legal proceedings” (emphasis added).​

Media and legal commentators see this position taken by Taser® International to be a new acknowledgement that Taser® may lead to cardiac events. In a follow up release to customers, Taser® International clarified that it is trying to minimize the risk of defending death cases involving the device where the probes are in close proximity to the heart.​

One thing is clear, such a warning to the users of this device, reduces Taser® International’s exposure to a lawsuit in cases involving deployments to the chest which are followed by a cardiac event. In addition, users are now on notice that it may be argued that a deployment to the chest was an improper use of the device. While it is unlikely, based on the research that the deployment of an electronic control device can cause a cardiac event, law enforcement must heed this warning and make changes to policy and training. The failure to do so may leave the law enforcement community standing alone in the lawsuit, since the company producing the device has issued a warning that avoiding the chest is the best practice.​

Taser® International has recommended that the frontal targeting area be lowered so that the chest is avoided. Taser®, in its training bulletin asserts:​

“We have issued a new TASER® Targeting Guide that will apply for the new XREP impact munition as well as ECDs such as the X26, M26 and X3.
Note, we have lowered the recommended point of aim from center of mass to lower-center of mass for front shots. The blue highlighted area in the adjacent target man represents the preferred target area. There are three reasons:​

A. Simplify targeting for all TASER® systems to one easy to remember map, avoiding chest shots when possible and the risk of a head/eye shot in a dynamic situation, as is standard for impact munitions.​

B. When possible, avoiding chest shots with ECDs avoids the controversy about whether ECDs do or do not affect the human heart.​

C. Close-spread ECD discharges to the front of the body are more effective when at least one probe is in the major muscles of the pelvic triangle or thigh region.​

Back shots remain the preferred area when practical”​

One of the difficulties that law enforcement will face is that aiming to the “pelvic triangle” enhances the probability that the genitals may be hit during deployment particularly in dynamic and fluid situations. Law enforcement has always been warned against a deployment aimed toward the genitals. Thus, policy and training should reflect a warning against chest deployments as well as warnings related to deployments aimed at the genitals. This is going to make frontal targeting even more difficult in dynamic and fluid situations.​

All officers and agencies are encouraged to review the attached policy (referenced above) which is provided as a free service of PATC/LLRMI. We at PATC/LLRMI remain strong proponents of electronic control devices generally and Taser® specifically, however, a provision limiting chest shots to deadly force situations is clearly the best risk management advice in light of this new warning from Taser® International.​

CITATION(s):​

i Training Bulletin 15.0 “Medical Research Update and Warnings” Taser® International, Phoenix Arizona 2009.​

 

[christman]

If the tasers have no effect on the heart (which, judging by the fatalities chalked up to them is a falsehood) then why does Taser International recommend against chest shots, as reported by one of the leading law enforcement risk management firms?

via LLRMI

Because they don't want lawsuits from crackheads with heart conditions?

 

[public servant]

If the tasers have no effect on the heart (which, judging by the fatalities chalked up to them is a falsehood) then why does Taser International recommend against chest shots...

Because when some fat, sweating slob that is high on cocaine, crack or meth decides he's going to fight with the police and ends up dying when he gets tased...his momma (who truly believes the piece of crap is a fine, upstanding citizen...just misunderstood) is going to file a civil lawsuit. And she'll probably get some liberal judge that hands out cookies and juice in court to the crack heads (don't laugh...that part isn't made up).

It's nothing more than a tool in a bag of tricks...designed to prevent injury to suspects and LEO's. Does it always work how it's designed? Nope. (Even a Glock explodes on occasion) Is it sometimes over used? Sure. Take them away? Not the best plan...IMO, of course.

It's no different than OC/CS spray or a baton. Either you can articulate and justify it's use...or you can't. If you can't...you'll probably end up in a bind.

 

[Bill of Rights]

It's actually 100mA to stop the heart. Taser operates at 2.1mA. WAY under the threshold of lethal.

Taken from here http://www.durhampolice.com/news/pdf/070921_1.pdf

A primary concern is the amount of electricity that is entering the persons body and if it will affect a
pacemaker or the heart. Voltage describes the electromotive force used to cause electrical current to flow;
current describes the flow of electricity. Joules describes the total amount of energy delivered by 1 watt of
power in 1 second. The threshold in which a cardiac ventricular fibrillation can occur is 10-50 joules; the
taser’s joule output, depending on the device model, is 0.36 or 1.76 joules. FDA approved pacemakers must
undergo testing that demonstrate they can withstand current delivered from an emergency defibrillator. The
TASER system delivers substantially lower levels of energy than the emergency defibrillator which can deliver
up to 400 joules. The information reviewed for the amount of electricity or energy has always been the same
throughout the research.

Of note: Cardiac defibrillators go as low as 2 joules. I've never seen one that went lower, so even the strongest taser doesn't shock as high as the lowest setting for a defib. (we'd go as low as 2j for infants; God willing, I'll never set mine that low.)

The proper training and the proper mindset are necessary with any tool. The problem with the taser is that while a duty pistol or baton causes an injury that the officer must answer for, the taser is far less so, specifically because it can in most cases be expected not to kill.

If an officer needs it, I say they should have it. If they abuse it, take it away along with their duty pistol, baton, uniform, cruiser, and badge. The problem is not the equipment but the investigation into the use of it and the people who abuse it.

Just like a pistol, it doesn't fire itself.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[IndyMonkey]

Less tazer more guns.

 

[E5RANGER375]

the nice thing too about police using the tazer is that as long as they issue the cartridges and record the number when its issued, if that cartridge is ever used (not counting dry tases) then there are little round pieces of paper inside that has a unique serial number to tie it to that cartridge. so its easy to determine who used their taser as long as the cartridge serial number is recorded. ALSO the taser itself can be plugged into a computer and will tell you when it was fired and how many times, etc. also, they have cameras in some models that record when the taser is turned on. so this stuff is a deterant to police to abuse them in my opinion. they know they cant cover it up if they abuse it. unless they buy their own tasers.

 

[public servant]

Less tazer more guns.

Just don't spray them with Fox then tase them. There have been several instance where the suspect bursts into flames. Brake cleaner is one of the primary ingredients of Fox. That would be a sucky report to write.

http://www.crtlesslethal.com/CRT Taser OC 2007.pdf

 

[PatriotPride]

the nice thing too about police using the tazer is that as long as they issue the cartridges and record the number when its issued, if that cartridge is ever used (not counting dry tases) then there are little round pieces of paper inside that has a unique serial number to tie it to that cartridge. so its easy to determine who used their taser as long as the cartridge serial number is recorded. ALSO the taser itself can be plugged into a computer and will tell you when it was fired and how many times, etc. also, they have cameras in some models that record when the taser is turned on. so this stuff is a deterant to police to abuse them in my opinion. they know they cant cover it up if they abuse it. unless they buy their own tasers.

Bingo. Nothing like a bit of ballistic accountability

 

[IndyMonkey]

Just don't spray them with Fox then tase them. There have been several instance where the suspect bursts into flames. Brake cleaner is one of the primary ingredients of Fox. That would be a sucky report to write.

http://www.crtlesslethal.com/CRT Taser OC 2007.pdf

maybe that is a bad mix, but it would have to be funny for a few minutes.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Brake cleaner is one of the primary ingredients of Fox.
http://www.crtlesslethal.com/CRT%20Taser%20OC%202007.pdf

thats good info to know if one ever runs out of brake cleaner

so does your department issue you brake cleaner if they are out of pepper spray or mace?

 

[public servant]

maybe that is a bad mix, but it would have to be funny for a few minutes.

I'm sure it would drastically increase the pucker factor.

 

[public servant]

thats good info to know if one ever runs out of brake cleaner

so does your department issue you brake cleaner if they are out of pepper spray or mace?

No. They started issuing First Defense that doesn't work worth because they were afraid of being sued. And now I can't even clean my brakes.

 

[downzero]

It's a shame that video was posted in the first post, instead of starting a debate on tasers.

There's at least three peer-reviewed studies in medical journals of which I am aware, that suggest that tasers can cause serious and permanent injury.

I think pepper spray is likely safer, although with the caveats that it isn't as effective and it's much more painful for both sides.

 

[E5RANGER375]

No. They started issuing First Defense that doesn't work worth because they were afraid of being sued. And now I can't even clean my brakes.

sorry.

 

[ATM]

Watt?

Not going there. I've seen first hand "watt" electrical puns can do to a thread:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...sion/12160-something_we_all_wanted_to_do.html

Not pretty!

 

[Joe Williams]

Not going there. I've seen first hand "watt" electrical puns can do to a thread:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...sion/12160-something_we_all_wanted_to_do.html

Not pretty!

Ohm I. Please, don't go there!