Syrian Refugees

[churchmouse]

What makes immigrants "good Americans" isn't necessarily abandoning their culture and adopting ours. Vietnamese refugees are a good example. I worked with many Vietnamese over the years and I have a profound respect for them. They adopted the "American way" while still holding onto their culture. The people I worked with came here as refugees when they were young, went to college, got degrees and worked the same job as me. They really fit in here because their cultures were compatible in that they had a sense of personal responsibility, and accountability. They seemed to fully understand the concepts of freedom, democracy and self-determination and I think they thrived in a new land because of that. They found a way to adapt to American culture without replacing their own.

This is acceptable. At least in my eyes.
We are surrounded by Hispanics in my area. For the most part they are assimilating as they keep up their homes, the kids are as well mannered as anyone elses and more so in some respects. They maintain their music/food and the ability to throw a good party. They do not drive worth a hoot but heck.....who does these days. English is at least tolerable.
Thing is, they are mostly Catholic so all of this as in being family oriented is taught in this religion.
Having little experience with Muslims beyond benny the bomber on the news it is tough to get a handle on the culture.
I have dealt with the culture in the business world when running a service truck in the HVAC trade. They are ruthless and will go whack on you in a heart beat.
When we sold off our rentals we dealt with a few family's and I did not have a good experience with any of them. One I really wanted to knock his teeth out as he treated my wife and daughter very badly as is their way as I understand it. He was removed from my area.
I am still fearful of how this will work out.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What makes immigrants "good Americans" isn't necessarily abandoning their culture and adopting ours. Vietnamese refugees are a good example. I worked with many Vietnamese over the years and I have a profound respect for them. They adopted the "American way" while still holding onto their culture. The people I worked with came here as refugees when they were young, went to college, got degrees and worked the same job as me. They really fit in here because their cultures were compatible in that they had a sense of personal responsibility, and accountability. They seemed to fully understand the concepts of freedom, democracy and self-determination and I think they thrived in a new land because of that. They found a way to adapt to American culture without replacing their own.

You mean they didn't sit around and whine about stuff not being up to their expectations? After seeing these sorts of videos, I understand why the democrats and other progressives are so hot to trot to bring these folks in -- they should match up well with their other constituents.

Please. Tell Me This Isn't Real.

 

[IndyDave1776]

What makes immigrants "good Americans" isn't necessarily abandoning their culture and adopting ours. Vietnamese refugees are a good example. I worked with many Vietnamese over the years and I have a profound respect for them. They adopted the "American way" while still holding onto their culture. The people I worked with came here as refugees when they were young, went to college, got degrees and worked the same job as me. They really fit in here because their cultures were compatible in that they had a sense of personal responsibility, and accountability. They seemed to fully understand the concepts of freedom, democracy and self-determination and I think they thrived in a new land because of that. They found a way to adapt to American culture without replacing their own.

Well said. Sometimes we have more difference in perspective than in substance. As for me, when referencing compatibility with our culture, this is exactly what I mean, that a newcomer gets up, goes to work, is a peaceful neighbor, and speaks English in public. I don't care that they still know how to speak the language of the 'old country', that they take pride in that cultural heritage, still eat foods popular in the old country, and don't look like Hitler's 'perfect Aryan'. I do care when an actual or hypothetical newcomer expects me to learn how to speak a foreign language, participate in paying for interpreters for his children in schools where they SHOULD be learning English and speaking it. I further do not accept the notion that we should adapt to the newcomers or tolerate behaviors from them which we have deemed unacceptable since before George Washington was crapping diapers. Liberals will at times throw (verbal) bricks at assorted asians as 'uncle Toms' because of this, but they came here to become Americans without giving up who they are, which is how it should be. Then, on the other hand, we have newcomers who want to set up Sharia zones with the intent of making it universal.

 

[BugI02]

And lets face it, imams are unelected officials who use their authority to make the law what they say it is - kind of like the Supreme Court.

 

[jamil]

This is acceptable. At least in my eyes.
We are surrounded by Hispanics in my area. For the most part they are assimilating as they keep up their homes, the kids are as well mannered as anyone elses and more so in some respects. They maintain their music/food and the ability to throw a good party. They do not drive worth a hoot but heck.....who does these days. English is at least tolerable.
Thing is, they are mostly Catholic so all of this as in being family oriented is taught in this religion.
Having little experience with Muslims beyond benny the bomber on the news it is tough to get a handle on the culture.
I have dealt with the culture in the business world when running a service truck in the HVAC trade. They are ruthless and will go whack on you in a heart beat.
When we sold off our rentals we dealt with a few family's and I did not have a good experience with any of them. One I really wanted to knock his teeth out as he treated my wife and daughter very badly as is their way as I understand it. He was removed from my area.
I am still fearful of how this will work out.

I don't blame you. I think it's reasonable for Americans to insist that immigrants at least are responsible human beings, and can fit in with our society. We've enough cultural turmoil that has only festered under the great unifier-in-chief. Bringing in more people who are incompatible with the traditional American values is irresponsible and foolish, and probably intentional.

You mean they didn't sit around and whine about stuff not being up to their expectations? After seeing these sorts of videos, I understand why the democrats and other progressives are so hot to trot to bring these folks in -- they should match up well with their other constituents.

Please. Tell Me This Isn't Real.

Yep. Nothing better festers a culture of victimhood than to bring in more people who dwell on their victimhood.

Well said. Sometimes we have more difference in perspective than in substance. As for me, when referencing compatibility with our culture, this is exactly what I mean, that a newcomer gets up, goes to work, is a peaceful neighbor, and speaks English in public. I don't care that they still know how to speak the language of the 'old country', that they take pride in that cultural heritage, still eat foods popular in the old country, and don't look like Hitler's 'perfect Aryan'. I do care when an actual or hypothetical newcomer expects me to learn how to speak a foreign language, participate in paying for interpreters for his children in schools where they SHOULD be learning English and speaking it. I further do not accept the notion that we should adapt to the newcomers or tolerate behaviors from them which we have deemed unacceptable since before George Washington was crapping diapers. Liberals will at times throw (verbal) bricks at assorted asians as 'uncle Toms' because of this, but they came here to become Americans without giving up who they are, which is how it should be. Then, on the other hand, we have newcomers who want to set up Sharia zones with the intent of making it universal.

Speaking of speaking in English, I was really impressed with their command of the nuances of the language. Except for one particular co-worker who eventually became a good friend. We just could not understand him at first. He was older and had been in the US longer than the other coworkers. I asked one of the younger Vietnamese guys about why the older one's English was so bad, and he replied they couldn't understand him either. It seems he had a speech impediment so that his own language was unintelligible. But spending enough time working with him I learned to understand him pretty well and we became good friends. He got me to try some kind of tofu soup and thought the expression on my face when the heat kicked in was funny. That was damn good soup.

I also befriended an Iranian coworker. But this was in the mid 80s. He fled from Iran after the revolution because he was secular. He sought the freedom that America offered. I'm not sure that these refugees would care to know me. I'm not sure someone who doesn't understand the concepts of freedom, democracy, or self-determination would seek me out as a friend.

 

[PaulF]

The Irish, 1871:

The Chinese, 1880:

Italians, 1888:

Germans, 1919:

The story is always the same:

They come here in too great a number.
They are too violent.
They do not speak the language.
They are the wrong religion.
They don't know what it means to be American and have no desire to learn.
They will irreversibly change American culture for the worse.

That didn't happen with the Irish. Or the Germans. Or the Chinese. Or the Italians...and we were told the same things we are being told about the Syrians. EXACTLY the same things. America is stronger than that.

They are us. They are the best men and women the planet have to offer. They want a better life for themselves and their families, and they recognize that the American way is the best way to accomplish that. They are willing to give up whatever it is they have, and travel halfway across the planet for a chance to plant roots here. America needs people like this. We were built by people like this.

America is a great place. A transformative place. When people from third-world ****holes arrive here it changes a great many of them permanently.

Ideologues sometimes do dangerous things. That isn't limited to Muslims...think Tim McVay.

The arguments in this thread are indeed ideological. One side says, "be compassionate" and if you disagree with us that means you are cowardly, ignorant, meanies. The other says, "being compassionate in this way is unwise", and if you disagree with us, you are simply foolish. I'm not advocating against compassion, I'm advocating against foolish compassion. And from the things we think are foolish, you guys try to fashion a giant straw man against us.

It is an impasse where there isn't much middle ground. I can't convince you that you're being foolish. And you can't convince me that your "compassionate" solution is actually sincerely compassion (too easy to be compassionate with other people's resources), and especially that it's not foolish.

There are more than two sides to this. I don't think it is from a lack of compassion that people arrive at these conclusions. As I stated upthread, I think there are far easier ways for a militant to gain entry to our country than through the refugee asylum program.

 

[churchmouse]

The Irish, 1871:

The Chinese, 1880:

Italians, 1888:

Germans, 1919:

The story is always the same:

They come here in too great a number.
They are too violent.
They do not speak the language.
They are the wrong religion.
They don't know what it means to be American and have no desire to learn.
They will irreversibly change American culture for the worse.

That didn't happen with the Irish. Or the Germans. Or the Chinese. Or the Italians...and we were told the same things we are being told about the Syrians. EXACTLY the same things. America is stronger than that.

They are us. They are the best men and women the planet have to offer. They want a better life for themselves and their families, and they recognize that the American way is the best way to accomplish that. They are willing to give up whatever it is they have, and travel halfway across the planet for a chance to plant roots here. America needs people like this. We were built by people like this.

America is a great place. A transformative place. When people from third-world ****holes arrive here it changes a great many of them permanently.

Ideologues sometimes do dangerous things. That isn't limited to Muslims...think Tim McVay.



There are more than two sides to this. I don't think it is from a lack of compassion that people arrive at these conclusions. As I stated upthread, I think there are far easier ways for a militant to gain entry to our country than through the refugee asylum program.

The only advantage to the refugee asylum thing is having cart blanch paper work which is a plus in itself.
Canada is flying them in wholesale now. They can casually stroll across the open expanses of the northern border.

 

[jamil]

There are more than two sides to this. I don't think it is from a lack of compassion that people arrive at these conclusions. As I stated upthread, I think there are far easier ways for a militant to gain entry to our country than through the refugee asylum program.

I'm not worried about terrorists infiltrating through the refugees. They can do that easily anyway. I'm more concerned that some will become the Tsarnaev brothers. All the past fears you mentioned is not an argument. The past isn't always indicative of the future. The Tsarnaev brothers were young when they came here, became more secular, fit into the culture, until they didn't. It was not American culture that made them Islamic extremists. It was Islamic extremists who did that.

ETA: Accedentally hit post instead of preview...

Certainly that it happened in the past doesn't prove it will happen in the future, but I'm not counting on the past, I'm playing the odds. A culture that is most susceptible to the influences of radical Islam makes me think a wiser application of compassion is to help them make their own land safer for them, rather than try to fit them into a culture they don't understand.

 

[Arthur Dent]

You never answered my questions.

Your questions are irrelevant.

 

[Arthur Dent]

We are always at war and must maintain vigilance. There are countless people, groups and countries that want to destroy our way of life.

You're such a good little follower!

 

[Arthur Dent]

The question has been answered.

OK fellas. Before this gets "Edgy" again lets chill.

The question as to which country we are at war with was not answered.

Nobody here is getting heated over this.

 

[PaulF]

I'm not worried about terrorists infiltrating through the refugees. They can do that easily anyway. I'm more concerned that some will become the Tsarnaev brothers. All the past fears you mentioned is not an argument. The past isn't always indicative of the future. The Tsarnaev brothers were young when they came here, became more secular, fit into the culture, until they didn't. It was not American culture that made them Islamic extremists. It was Islamic extremists who did that.

The next Tsarnaev brothers are just as likely to be born in Bloomington, with a last name like Smith or Harris. [Strike]Militant Islam[/Strike] Religion is insidious, it's time we move beyond this nonsense altogether.

 

[churchmouse]

Your questions are irrelevant.

And we see them as relevant to the conversation just as yours are.

I am going to politely ask you to please ease up and get into the conversation.

That not everyone agrees with every one else is why these discussions are taking place.

I am and have asked this of the others.

-CM-

 

[Arthur Dent]

The Constitution provides the mandate to defend against enemies, foreign and domestic. It does NOT specify that those enemies must be UN-member recognized nation-states led by governments with formal borders, an international diplomatic presence, or a stationary seat of government.

Care to provide where this is in the Constitution?

 

[Arthur Dent]

Have fun everyone. I'm done with this one.

 

[Dead Duck]

 

[churchmouse]

Have fun everyone. I'm done with this one.

Your call of course.

 

[churchmouse]

The question as to which country we are at war with was not answered.

Nobody here is getting heated over this.

Again....it is my observations. I state that "Before" it gets that way. No more.

 

[308jake]

Your questions are irrelevant.

Why? Your unwillingness to answer the questions is relevant.

 

[308jake]

You're such a good little follower!

Thank you. Rest assured though, I would never follow you anywhere.