Stop Insulting My Vote (a libertarian rant)

[CarmelHP]

It's up to you guys. My vote is not up for you to take. It is there for you to win. Why? Because my vote is far too valuable.

You said in another thread that you want to make adultery illegal, according to the libertarians here you'd be best served by R's, right? What's the problem buby?

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Too many Libertarians now stand for NO goverment, NO taxes, and NO rules instead of freedom.

As I said, the party has been taken over by anarchists among others, and no longer represents pragmatic, workable solutions to crafting and governing a viable society. "Ideals or nothing" isn't a feasible way of running a free society when not everybody shares those ideals. If Libertarians as now constituted got into power, their attempts to force their ideals on everybody else would create a tyranny greater than any that is threatened now.

Ah yes, the terrible tyranny of limited government.

On a serious note though, in case you weren't paying attention in the fall of 2008, a large bulk of libertarian-minded citizens supported one of your very own Republicans. Unfortunately, you guys wanted a pandering man, who doesn't understand (how do you say? sh!@ about fu!@?) anything, to represent you instead.

Oh, I do enjoy Republican surprise that stick-up-the-arse/political-stances-on-the-winds McCain was beaten in the R-vs-D popularity contest by a black man with the comfortable outward personality of Bill Cosby/Morgan Freeman & with the shining charisma of a rock star who was promising many free things & door prizes.

Yeah...didn't see that coming.

 

[hotfarmboy1]

We aren't that different, I will tell you if I thought a 3rd party had a chance in hell I would be all over it, I was just trying to keep Obongo out of office not put McCain in.

I'm with you, I agree with the points you commented on in your quote, and what you said at the end.

 

[techres]

You said in another thread that you want to make adultery illegal, according to the libertarians here you'd be best served by R's, right? What's the problem buby?

I said that it is best for everyone that my personal desires are left out of law. I fundamentally believe that it is best that your desires and all the "do it for the children" people's desires are also left out.

Otherwise we are doomed to expansion of government matched with a huge swinging pendulum. Imagine Noah's Ark on the end of a pendulum and you get where we are headed. More and more "pets" are getting jammed in and the only change is the direction of the pendulum swing.

That way only leads to the sound of snapping wood, screams, and bloody rubble.

So the only path to salvation, to emptying the ark, is for me to admit to myself that it is best that we all step back from cramming in pets. And while I might like the idea of adulterers prisons (as an example), it is better for the Republic itself that I do not get that wish or even wish it in a real way.

Make sense?

Now if you want to hear what my specific problems are with the republican party, I am happy to opine all day. But that might be considered a thread jack.

 

[Fletch]

You said in another thread that you want to make adultery illegal, according to the libertarians here you'd be best served by R's, right? What's the problem buby?

I guess it depends on what kind of illegal he's talking about. Adultery is a breach of contract, and libertarians support the sanctity of contract. If this is what he meant, he's got no quarrel with libertarians.

 

[jsgolfman]

I see a lot of complaints about anarchism, mostly from people who have no clue what they are talking about. Do any of you notice there is one common thread running through all of your arguments and bitching? GOVERNMENT. Shouldn't that tell you something?

 

[CarmelHP]

I guess it depends on what kind of illegal he's talking about. Adultery is a breach of contract, and libertarians support the sanctity of contract. If this is what he meant, he's got no quarrel with libertarians.

I wish Libertarians would at least make sense. He said illegal as in "adulterers' prisons," I think that's pretty clearly put. Contracts are strictly interpreted by their terms, did you ever see a marriage license that spelled out expectations. No, neither have I, maybe in states with covenant marriages (all 3 of them) there are actual agreements but there are no penalties (contract law demands provable or contract damages). That's my problem with libertarians, they spend their days pronouncing grandiloquent non sequitors like that rather than trying to win elections. They invite the electorate to see them as pie-in-the-sky kooks and then are surprised when they do. As long as they don't try to win elections, they will be beat by the guys who do every time and will continue to maintain their irrelevance, even as a marginal party.

 

[techres]

I wish Libertarians would at least make sense. He said illegal as in "adulterers' prisons," I think that's pretty clearly put. Contracts are strictly interpreted by their terms, did you ever see a marriage license that spelled out expectations. No, neither have I, maybe in states with covenant marriages (all 3 of them) there are actual agreements but there are no penalties (contract law demands provable or contract damages). That's my problem with libertarians, they spend their days pronouncing grandiloquent non sequitors like that rather than trying to win elections. They invite the electorate to see them as pie-in-the-sky kooks and then are surprised when they do. As long as they don't try to win elections, they will be beat by the guys who do every time and will continue to maintain their irrelevance, even as a marginal party.

No, you did not get what I said. I said that when we all get whatever our hearts desire we end up with a nanny state and all you get to decide is if it is a "green" nanny state or a "red white & blue" nanny state.

I don't want a nanny state.

I used adulterer's prisons as an example of something I would think is fair, and would implement if I were grand high poobah. But it is something I will never get, and gladly, because the social contract that is best is one that stays out of that area of affairs.

What do I want? Less intrusion by the left AND THE RIGHT into the liberties and privacies of the individual. I want a Republic that values its individuals rather than trying to control them with fear of this or that.

My comment was trying to be clear that I understand the temptation to drive my personal desires into law and then use them to shape my vision of the perfect America. And my comment was that I also am glad that neither I, nor you, nor anyone gets that chance.

I used "adulterer's prisons" as an example of a desire, not as a political platform.

 

[Fletch]

I wish Libertarians would at least make sense. He said illegal as in "adulterers' prisons," I think that's pretty clearly put. Contracts are strictly interpreted by their terms, did you ever see a marriage license that spelled out expectations. No, neither have I, maybe in states with covenant marriages (all 3 of them) there are actual agreements but there are no penalties (contract law demands provable or contract damages). That's my problem with libertarians, they spend their days pronouncing grandiloquent non sequitors like that rather than trying to win elections. They invite the electorate to see them as pie-in-the-sky kooks and then are surprised when they do. As long as they don't try to win elections, they will be beat by the guys who do every time and will continue to maintain their irrelevance, even as a marginal party.

I find it amazing that, with your much higher post count than mine, you are apparently unfamiliar with the concept of cross-posting, something which any handy 12-year-old would probably be happy to explain to you.

You also apparently have some trouble with the word "if", a conditional qualifier that indicates uncertainty on the part of the speaker. Trust me, it's a real word. You can find it in the dictionary.

Given your handicaps, I guess it's no real surprise that you vote Republican.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I am for OPEN Immigration and am ANTI-English as the national language./rant

As I laid off construction worker , I can't tell you on this site how much this attitude annoys the CRAP outta me !

As I see it , when you flood the country with immigrants who don't share your countries values and customs , you wind up DESTROYING your country .

I invite you to take a drive with me on W. Washington St , between Holt Rd. & White river PKWY. . Then explain to me what freakin value did they add to the community by being here .

 

[Al B]

Worked for the Census, carrying out Constitutional duties.... the same Constitution many Libertarians spit on with "core values" of anarchy and no government at all.

Please tell me where in the world you found this!

 

[Paco Bedejo]

As I laid off construction worker , I can't tell you on this site how much this attitude annoys the CRAP outta me !

As I see it , when you flood the country with immigrants who don't share your countries values and customs , you wind up DESTROYING your country .

I invite you to take a drive with me on W. Washington St , between Holt Rd. & White river PKWY. . Then explain to me what freakin value did they add to the community by being here .

Ask yourself WHY the immigrants are coming here.








If you answered "because of government handouts", then I don't think you have a firm base from which to argue against The Meach's point*S*. He's not saying that's the only thing he'd change. He would end the reason that the worst & least bright choose to immigrate to the US.

 

[CarmelHP]

Given your handicaps, I guess it's no real surprise that you vote Republican.

That's the other thing about libertarians, they think personal attacks constitute "debate."

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Ask yourself WHY the immigrants are coming here.If you answered "because of government handouts", then I don't think you have a firm base from which to argue against The Meach's point*S*. He's not saying that's the only thing he'd change. He would end the reason that the worst & least bright choose to immigrate to the US.

I wasn't thinking of "handouts" , I was thinking more along the lines of stealing work .

Why pay an American $1,200 to lay your tile when you can get a Hecho in mexico to do it for $500 ?

Why pay an American IT person $60,000 when you can sub it out to someone in india for $25,000 ?

 

[Fletch]

That's the other thing about libertarians, they think personal attacks constitute "debate."

Yeah, I apologize for that one. It was written in anger and completely unnecessary. I tend to get pissy when people willfully disregard the clear meaning of my posts; it's a personal failing.

 

[Fletch]

I wasn't thinking of "handouts" , I was thinking more along the lines of stealing work .

Why pay an American $1,200 to lay your tile when you can get a Hecho in mexico to do it for $500 ?

Why pay an American IT person $60,000 when you can sub it out to someone in india for $25,000 ?

Why pay $3.00 a gallon for gas when you can go down the street and get it for $2.50?

 

[Phil502]

Ask yourself WHY the immigrants are coming here.








If you answered "because of government handouts", then I don't think you have a firm base from which to argue against The Meach's point*S*. He's not saying that's the only thing he'd change. He would end the reason that the worst & least bright choose to immigrate to the US.

Why do you think? There's a whole lot of illegals in jail too, why are they here. A lot of them want to work, sure, I agree, you saying none of them are here for free healthcare and welfare and wic and.......

 

[turnandshoot4]

I would suggest that everyone go back and read the viceral threads from right around election day last year. At its peak, I was told that if I just voted Republican this one time in order to stop Obama, then afterwards we could talk and make needed changes to bring my type into the Republican party by choice and not threat.

One poster even offered (jokingly I am sure) to vote 3rd party next time if I just went Republican "this one time".

So what happens now?

Those same Republicans are not making the changes, but instead are rolling out the same threats and blame that they seem to think will win them the next election. Oh, wait, they aren't really thinking of "how to win", they are really thinking "how not to lose".

So, to be clear, Republicans will not win over the 3rd party people through threat, shame, name calling, and so forth. Frankly, they will not win over the 3rd party people until they decide to treat them like equals and talk to them rather than deciding that we are just a bunch of voters that have "gone full retard".

It's up to you guys. My vote is not up for you to take. It is there for you to win. Why? Because my vote is far too valuable.

Will someone please respond to this post?! Everyone wants to nit pick name calling and whatever else and don't respond to intelligent posts.

 

[Phil502]

Why pay $3.00 a gallon for gas when you can go down the street and get it for $2.50?

Thats not the same thing. I pay more for American goods when I can just because an American has a job because of it. Unfortunately manufacturing is all but destroyed in this country which is why we notice the large cost of illegals on the system. There's not enough of these jobs for us and them, just that simple. I don't work in maufacturing or construction, I have a degree and work in a hospital so this is not real real personal issue.

 

[Fletch]

Thats not the same thing. I pay more for American goods when I can just because an American has a job because of it. Unfortunately manufacturing is all but destroyed in this country which is why we notice the large cost of illegals on the system. There's not enough of these jobs for us and them, just that simple. I don't work in maufacturing or construction, I have a degree and work in a hospital so this is not real real personal issue.

Well, I do work in a field that competes with foreign labor. I'm a computer programmer. I compete against thousands of people willing to make half my salary. I beat them by being a better employee who does demonstrably better work, and charge a premium for my services because of it. All competition has done is force me to be better at my job, so I don't really see the problem.