Shut her down boys, shut her down.

[BigRed]

With any luck, maybe the central state will go into eternal shut down.

 

[KG1]

Have any Democrats come up with any serious border security plans to try and stem the flow of all things illegal from entering the country? Do they even want an effective plan?

Like it or not the wall is a plan.

 

[bwframe]

The dems "plan" is to bring in a load of dem votes, so that we will be outnumbered forever.

 

[BugI02]

.."Back into office?" When was the open borders crowd ever in office?

You know; DACA, DAPA, JAWA, DREAMers, permanent TPS for everybody - that crowd. We finally gave them the shove in January 2017 and we’re fighting to keep them from regaining power

 

[churchmouse]

You know; DACA, DAPA, JAWA, DREAMers, permanent TPS for everybody - that crowd. We finally gave them the shove in January 2017 and we’re fighting to keep them from regaining power

And they are using every tool they have to get it back.

Look to the electorate people. They are consuming the and feeling it's effects.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It's a waste of money. Most illegals come here legally. An unmanned, unmonitored wall (cause CBP doesn't have nearly enough manpower), is nothing more than a speedbump on your way to gaining entry into the United States. The money would be better spent aggressively prosecuting people that entice, and hire illegals.

Iffy on most. About half Center for Migration Studies put the number of illegals in the US on visa overstays at about 42%.
https://www.politifact.com/californ...-true-visa-overstays-account-half-all-people/

Also where do most of the overstays come from? How many of the illegals from Mexico/central America fly in or come in on a tourist visa vs the number from Asia/Africa/Europe? I would guess that the numbers aren't 50/50. Then what are the type of people you are most interested in stopping, those that can't get a tourist visa or those that can?

And I agree we should aggressively prosecute those that entice and hire illegals. Why can't we do both?

Disagreeing with having a wall does not default to agreeing with open borders. MMP mentioned better staffing for CBP. I think thats a good idea. We have drones in the mid-East that fly round the clock, let's get some of those, too. There is better tech than a wall, that would be more efficient.

Yep on the better staffing and the tech, but that goes with the wall. You mentioned that the wall is nothing more than a speedbump, and that may be true. But what is the purpose of a speedbump, wouldn't slowing them from crossing give the CBP more time to respond? Especially if they had better staffing and detection tech to spot them.

It doesn't address the problem(s) associated with the movement of undocumented people and goods across our border, and (to me) that makes it a little more than boondoggle.

We need to address the realities of the situation, decide what is lacking in our current scheme, and devise a path toward a more effective set of policies. Right now we (writ large) cannot even agree on what the problem is.

-Do we want to keep our food production costs low, or do we want to pay more for hand-picked produce? The status quo involves huge numbers of people temporarily moving across both international and state borders...and then back. Should we have a system that allows people to legally cross the border for seasonal work...or to we block them out and raise the effective cost of that labor? In the end the consumer pays the price.

-Do we want to address the American love affair with drugs? We fund the cartels, and we can stop...but our government has contracts to fulfill at their legion of private-run prisons, and the money flows freely from private donor to public servant.

-Do we still want the best and brightest the world has to offer? Since WWII we have drawn the top academic, economic, engineering, and business minds from around the globe. The immigrants that come here aren't lazy...the lazy stay home.

Most immigrants aren't criminals (beyond illegal entry), and we have plenty of law enforcement to deal with those that are. Some of these people want to work and go home...we should let them. Some of these people want to become American...that's a beautiful thing, and we should welcome them. Some of these people want to take advantage of our ridiculous drug and prostitution laws, and they feed on our most vulnerable...those people should be dealt with by the justice system.

Right now in Gainesville Georgia there are several giant chicken processing plants that desperately need workers, but they are in direct competition with Chinese producers...so they need to keep production costs low if they want to produce chicken in the US, under direct supervision. Those factories import illegal workers by the thousands in a sick revolving door-like scheme. Most of those people come here thinking they are getting a legitimate shot at an American life. They want to buy houses and raise their children here. They arrive to find they are little more than slaves.

There has to be a better, more transparent, more productive way to deal with this problem than security theatre. Lets' be honest...that's all border walls have ever been.

What percentage of food costs come from labor? For fresh fruits and vegetables less than 10% which for the average family is about $45. Yes meat has a higher labor cost, no experience in a chicken plant but some in pork. A local pork processing plant employees about 2k employees, but processes 10-12.5k hogs a day. They pay well over minimum wage, for the area they pay at least competitively for factory labor and probably more for semi-skilled labor. Current starting wage is I think 14.50 per hr after 90 days for the lowest paying job. And yes they do import a good bit of their labor from south of the border. For the hog plant figure about 800-1k lbs of meat per day per employee, going with 800 lbs per person what percentage of labor costs is that pork chop or bacon on your plate? Not all that much.

Don't we already have seasonal worker visas? Have you seen people argue against increasing if needed? Will a wall stop those that have a valid work visa? Strawman.

How many of those top minds come here illegally? Again strawman.

You say most illegals aren't criminals beyond their entry/overstay, what about identy fraud, driving without a (valid) license, etc.? That hog plant I mentioned, a few years back they stated that 90+% of their workforce was citizens. Anyone that worked there knew that was BS. It wasn't that uncommon for an applicant to somehow have the same SS# as a current employee. I knew one guy who mentioned having at least 2 different DLs.

Drugs etc are a whole nother issue. But wouldn't a wall and better border enforcement help with that?

 

[Phase2]

 

[GIJEW]

Lots of blame to go around and lots of parts to a solution.

If Congressmen would do THEIR jobs and not just fall in line to rubber-stamp whatever the party leadership put into an omnibus bill, votes on spending would be ala-carte and there wouldn't be any shutdown, but that doesn't advance a career as a swamp creature.

Crack down on people overstaying visas? Absolutely, and make them ineligible for another as a disincentive. Actual jail time for hiring illegals instead of fines to be passed on to the consumer? Absolutely
However, for this to work, we need to apply the same punishment to those in government who make this possible. There is no reason for not being able to track down people who overstay visas or jump the fence and try to get hired. They don't file tax returns? and if they don't, their employers don't with-hold taxes on their wages? And how is it that a dozen people using the same SS# of some dead guy, doesn't draw the attention of the IRS? They need better computer programmers? Given this malfeasance, the cynic in me says that talk of punishing employers of illegals is just deflection/distraction by the COC GOPers who want illegal workers to drive down wages or race-baiting, sanctuary state/city supporting, abolish ICE, power mongers in the DNC.

To those who say a physical barrier is unnecessary and useless, border-crashers in tijuana used to bum rush the border crossing there. About 500 members of soro's caravan tried that recently and between different fencing--and people behind it, shooting tear gas at them--that didn't work for them. Is building "the great wall of china" from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico and waste of money? Of course, but who said that it all has to be the same type of barrier? The Israeli border wall Kut mentioned only has concrete monoliths with bullet proof watch towers in urban areas where there was a problem of sniping. Most of it is chain link fence, topped with razor wire, and wired to sense pressure: like differentiating between a bird sitting on it; a donkey scratching himself on it; someone climbing it; or cutting it. It's expensive and doesn't stop anyone by itself, but it was effective enough that terrorists were trying to use hang gliders and a hot air balloon to get past it....until they started tunneling.

If this sounds like a mil-spec enterprise, it should. People trying to crash the border and work illegally are just a symptom of an unsecure border and a government unserious about securing it. It really is a national security problem. There are paramilitary narco-cartels importing drugs, their drug wars, and terrorists, in addition to illegal laborers and sex slaves etc. Just before soro's caravan set off, the president of either Honduras or Guatemala announced capturing and deporting 100 members of ISIS. I've said this elsewhere, but IMO we should militarize the border. We have the best NVO in the world and can distinguish between mixed company carrying children and military aged men carrying packs of dope and maybe rifles. Once narco gangsters start getting shot, the illegal laborers will stay home and the possibility of shooting unarmed people for trying to illegally get into the country will solve itself. In any case, a star shell over their heads should convince them to turn around.

 

[hoosierdoc]

They don’t want a budget. Haven’t had one in years. CRs and omnibus bills are a huge gimmick. Jerks. It’s a constitutional requirement. Pass a damn budget

 

[jamil]

Lots of blame to go around and lots of parts to a solution.

If Congressmen would do THEIR jobs and not just fall in line to rubber-stamp whatever the party leadership put into an omnibus bill, votes on spending would be ala-carte and there wouldn't be any shutdown, but that doesn't advance a career as a swamp creature.

Crack down on people overstaying visas? Absolutely, and make them ineligible for another as a disincentive. Actual jail time for hiring illegals instead of fines to be passed on to the consumer? Absolutely
However, for this to work, we need to apply the same punishment to those in government who make this possible. There is no reason for not being able to track down people who overstay visas or jump the fence and try to get hired. They don't file tax returns? and if they don't, their employers don't with-hold taxes on their wages? And how is it that a dozen people using the same SS# of some dead guy, doesn't draw the attention of the IRS? They need better computer programmers? Given this malfeasance, the cynic in me says that talk of punishing employers of illegals is just deflection/distraction by the COC GOPers who want illegal workers to drive down wages or race-baiting, sanctuary state/city supporting, abolish ICE, power mongers in the DNC.

To those who say a physical barrier is unnecessary and useless, border-crashers in tijuana used to bum rush the border crossing there. About 500 members of soro's caravan tried that recently and between different fencing--and people behind it, shooting tear gas at them--that didn't work for them. Is building "the great wall of china" from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico and waste of money? Of course, but who said that it all has to be the same type of barrier? The Israeli border wall Kut mentioned only has concrete monoliths with bullet proof watch towers in urban areas where there was a problem of sniping. Most of it is chain link fence, topped with razor wire, and wired to sense pressure: like differentiating between a bird sitting on it; a donkey scratching himself on it; someone climbing it; or cutting it. It's expensive and doesn't stop anyone by itself, but it was effective enough that terrorists were trying to use hang gliders and a hot air balloon to get past it....until they started tunneling.

If this sounds like a mil-spec enterprise, it should. People trying to crash the border and work illegally are just a symptom of an unsecure border and a government unserious about securing it. It really is a national security problem. There are paramilitary narco-cartels importing drugs, their drug wars, and terrorists, in addition to illegal laborers and sex slaves etc. Just before soro's caravan set off, the president of either Honduras or Guatemala announced capturing and deporting 100 members of ISIS. I've said this elsewhere, but IMO we should militarize the border. We have the best NVO in the world and can distinguish between mixed company carrying children and military aged men carrying packs of dope and maybe rifles. Once narco gangsters start getting shot, the illegal laborers will stay home and the possibility of shooting unarmed people for trying to illegally get into the country will solve itself. In any case, a star shell over their heads should convince them to turn around.

Now hold on there. You can say they need better computer programs if you want, but that not the same thing as needing better computer programmers. They need better goals. They need better integration of the set of goals across all the departments. If what you have in mind was not specified I would guarantee none of those things are on the feature list.

 

[churchmouse]

They don’t want a budget. Haven’t had one in years. CRs and omnibus bills are a huge gimmick. Jerks. It’s a constitutional requirement. Pass a damn budget

I have put this argument out in the FB snowflake socialist crowd. Those freaking morons see a pie chart on spending and think that is a budget.
Write/pass/live by a budget.

 

[KG1]

They don’t want a budget. Haven’t had one in years. CRs and omnibus bills are a huge gimmick. Jerks. It’s a constitutional requirement. Pass a damn budget

The whole damn government has turned into a huge gimmick.

 

[KG1]

Lots of blame to go around and lots of parts to a solution.

If Congressmen would do THEIR jobs and not just fall in line to rubber-stamp whatever the party leadership put into an omnibus bill, votes on spending would be ala-carte and there wouldn't be any shutdown, but that doesn't advance a career as a swamp creature.

Crack down on people overstaying visas? Absolutely, and make them ineligible for another as a disincentive. Actual jail time for hiring illegals instead of fines to be passed on to the consumer? Absolutely
However, for this to work, we need to apply the same punishment to those in government who make this possible. There is no reason for not being able to track down people who overstay visas or jump the fence and try to get hired. They don't file tax returns? and if they don't, their employers don't with-hold taxes on their wages? And how is it that a dozen people using the same SS# of some dead guy, doesn't draw the attention of the IRS? They need better computer programmers? Given this malfeasance, the cynic in me says that talk of punishing employers of illegals is just deflection/distraction by the COC GOPers who want illegal workers to drive down wages or race-baiting, sanctuary state/city supporting, abolish ICE, power mongers in the DNC.

To those who say a physical barrier is unnecessary and useless, border-crashers in tijuana used to bum rush the border crossing there. About 500 members of soro's caravan tried that recently and between different fencing--and people behind it, shooting tear gas at them--that didn't work for them. Is building "the great wall of china" from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico and waste of money? Of course, but who said that it all has to be the same type of barrier? The Israeli border wall Kut mentioned only has concrete monoliths with bullet proof watch towers in urban areas where there was a problem of sniping. Most of it is chain link fence, topped with razor wire, and wired to sense pressure: like differentiating between a bird sitting on it; a donkey scratching himself on it; someone climbing it; or cutting it. It's expensive and doesn't stop anyone by itself, but it was effective enough that terrorists were trying to use hang gliders and a hot air balloon to get past it....until they started tunneling.

If this sounds like a mil-spec enterprise, it should. People trying to crash the border and work illegally are just a symptom of an unsecure border and a government unserious about securing it. It really is a national security problem. There are paramilitary narco-cartels importing drugs, their drug wars, and terrorists, in addition to illegal laborers and sex slaves etc. Just before soro's caravan set off, the president of either Honduras or Guatemala announced capturing and deporting 100 members of ISIS. I've said this elsewhere, but IMO we should militarize the border. We have the best NVO in the world and can distinguish between mixed company carrying children and military aged men carrying packs of dope and maybe rifles. Once narco gangsters start getting shot, the illegal laborers will stay home and the possibility of shooting unarmed people for trying to illegally get into the country will solve itself. In any case, a star shell over their heads should convince them to turn around.

I’d say this is pretty much a comprehensive post right here.

 

[Snapdragon]

Serious question. Do you think the erection of this wall will have noticeable effect on preventing illegal immigration? ...at least enough to justify it's cost? I do not. We're not building a wall like the one in Israel. We are building a simple, easily defeated, wall.
The way to curb illegal immigration, is to deter people wanting to come here. That starts with the reason people want to come here, employment. Go after the employers, not the potential employees. Setup a task force with the purpose of finding and prosecuting those that knowingly hire illegals. Smack them on the wrist the first time, and them hammer them if they have a second instance.

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Kutnupe14 again."

Politics aside, I think the wall is a big waste of money.

 

[churchmouse]

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Kutnupe14 again."

Politics aside, I think the wall is a big waste of money.

Lets look at it this way. Yes, stop the reasons they come here. But Kut is missing something. The benefits that are readily available to them. Automatic money once they learn the system. Also the cost to set up/fund/enhance such a task force. And if it is Gov. ran then no, it will have no teeth. There is waste in every direction.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Lets look at it this way. Yes, stop the reasons they come here. But Kut is missing something. The benefits that are readily available to them. Automatic money once they learn the system. Also the cost to set up/fund/enhance such a task force. And if it is Gov. ran then no, it will have no teeth. There is waste in every direction.

Agreed... they should not be eligible for any benefits. It's insane that has to be said, because it's a real thing.

 

[churchmouse]

Agreed... they should not be eligible for any benefits. It's insane that has to be said, because it's a real thing.

It is insane. This is the part that convinces me they (open borders crowd) are generating a voter block. There can be no other explanation.

 

[2A_Tom]

What is the long term cost of more government employees to do border security, fly and maintain drones, track down and deport those caught.

Bigger government is the solution some seem to be proposing.

ETA: Also give the government more power to throw Americans in prison foe non violent crimes.

 

[Kutnupe14]

What is the long term cost of more government employees to do border security, fly and maintain drones, track down and deport those caught.

Bigger government is the solution some seem to be proposing.

ETA: Also give the government more power to throw Americans in prison foe non violent crimes.

I don't quite think adding more people to CBP, who would serve under an umbrella of an already existing agency, completely qualifies as "bigger government." If other bureaus or offices were created, then I'd see you point.

 

[churchmouse]

I don't quite think adding more people to CBP, who would serve under an umbrella of an already existing agency, completely qualifies as "bigger government." If other bureaus or offices were created, then I'd see you point.

Many good points being made. But what is to be done.

Can we all agree that something must be done. And if yes how to accomplish this.

With the caravan seeming to be the new way to attack and penetrate the boarder I think a barrier is the 1st step. But what kind. It will still need to be policed. How to accomplish that.