Should We Help Georgia?

[sanzo87]

I know a lot will not like my views on this but oh well. Here is the thing we can not go toe to toe with Russia in anyway for more reasons that i can count. Hell almost all of you are older than me and should know that on the ground Russia would run any troops we could gather up in a short or long time over like a steam roller not be cause of firepower but shear man power and knowing the land. Also Russia has and will never respond to force well. I also believe that we need to stop trying to be that dam worlds police WE ARE NOT no matter how much you want us to be. (that's why a lot of nations hate us because we act like we are the best and that you should do it our way or its wrong) And to Russia they do think that they have a good reason to be there no matter what anyone else thinks just like us and Iraq (you may think that we belonged in Iraq but that’s your opinion and your initialed to it) And for those saying that we should help with money etc… that too could be taken badly in the eyes of Russia. And has the possibility of provoking them in to more actions. As well as, what money are we to give them we are over spent as is handing out money all over the world making the value worth less and less. (when if you ask me we need to invest this money into our self where it is most defiantly needed badly to help our economy that is not doing so well.)

 

[SavageEagle]

Sanzo, that's probably one of the best cases for us to just shut up and butt out. If only that was possible. Even though alot of nations want us to butt out, there are many than want us there too.

 

[sanzo87]

I know that to be true but at the same time we can not help everyone. Sometimes you must help your self before you may have the power to help another.

 

[Paul]

I know a lot will not like my views on this but oh well. Here is the thing we can not go toe to toe with Russia in anyway for more reasons that i can count. Hell almost all of you are older than me and should know that on the ground Russia would run any troops we could gather up in a short or long time over like a steam roller not be cause of firepower but shear man power and knowing the land. Also Russia has and will never respond to force well. I also believe that we need to stop trying to be that dam worlds police WE ARE NOT no matter how much you want us to be. (that's why a lot of nations hate us because we act like we are the best and that you should do it our way or its wrong) And to Russia they do think that they have a good reason to be there no matter what anyone else thinks just like us and Iraq (you may think that we belonged in Iraq but that’s your opinion and your initialed to it) And for those saying that we should help with money etc… that too could be taken badly in the eyes of Russia. And has the possibility of provoking them in to more actions. As well as, what money are we to give them we are over spent as is handing out money all over the world making the value worth less and less. (when if you ask me we need to invest this money into our self where it is most defiantly needed badly to help our economy that is not doing so well.)

Very thought out response and good arguments! I think we should work on our economy, and our military. We need to stay on top. That will hurt Putin and the Russians more than anything.

 

[BloodEclipse]

I know a lot will not like my views on this but oh well. Here is the thing we can not go toe to toe with Russia in anyway for more reasons that i can count. Hell almost all of you are older than me and should know that on the ground Russia would run any troops we could gather up in a short or long time over like a steam roller not be cause of firepower but shear man power and knowing the land. Also Russia has and will never respond to force well. I also believe that we need to stop trying to be that dam worlds police WE ARE NOT no matter how much you want us to be. (that's why a lot of nations hate us because we act like we are the best and that you should do it our way or its wrong) And to Russia they do think that they have a good reason to be there no matter what anyone else thinks just like us and Iraq (you may think that we belonged in Iraq but that’s your opinion and your initialed to it) And for those saying that we should help with money etc… that too could be taken badly in the eyes of Russia. And has the possibility of provoking them in to more actions. As well as, what money are we to give them we are over spent as is handing out money all over the world making the value worth less and less. (when if you ask me we need to invest this money into our self where it is most defiantly needed badly to help our economy that is not doing so well.)

I disagree completely. If we wish to survive as a Nation which has the freedoms we have today, we have to be vigilant and keep those freedoms alive the world over.
Ok so some of you think "It's just Georgia. We need to stay home and worry about healthcare."

Then "I never did care much for Ukraine anyway thats no big deal, besides we need to focus on growing our economy"

Later "Poland who cares about Poland I don't care if they are NATO we have to repair our bridges and roads"

Even later "Germany? Well didn't half of it use to belong to the Soviet Union anyway? We can't be bothered with that we need our money to go to education."

Ok so I'm being sarcastic, but I hope you get my point. The world stood by and watched Hitler conquer country after country and we stood by and did squat. It took an attack from Japan for us to have the balls to go to Europe. Had we confronted Evil at its early stages think of the lives that could have been saved.

The difference between us and Russia is dramatic. When we take control of a country we build it up and give it back. Russia on the other hand either destroys it and leaves it in shambles or it decides to keep it.

What happens overseas does have an impact here at home. The days of being isolated is long gone. Democracies with freedom look to us for support. If we fail Georgia how much resistance will other young democracies give in the face of tyranny?

But doesn't Europe hate us? Yeah but not really. We are like the Old Dallas Cowboys. America's favorite team and also America's most hated team. Not everybody likes a winner, but everybody does like winning. Europe doesn't hate us they are just jealous of us. If the SHTF you can bet they want us on their side.

 

[indyninja]

Do you remember Vietnam?

I disagree completely. If we wish to survive as a Nation which has the freedoms we have today, we have to be vigilant and keep those freedoms alive the world over.
Ok so some of you think "It's just Georgia. We need to stay home and worry about healthcare."

Then "I never did care much for Ukraine anyway thats no big deal, besides we need to focus on growing our economy"

Later "Poland who cares about Poland I don't care if they are NATO we have to repair our bridges and roads"

Even later "Germany? Well didn't half of it use to belong to the Soviet Union anyway? We can't be bothered with that we need our money to go to education."

 

[techres]

Do you remember Vietnam?

Forget Vietnam, do you remember Iraq and Afghanistan?

We are already fighting on multiple fronts and have been for years. Opening a third front (Georgia), or a fourth (Iran), or a fifth (Syria), or a sixth (insert name of country where freedom is being trampled but we have not invaded yet - Burma/Sudan/Cuba/China - pick any continent really) would be noble, perhaps, but not militarily wise at this time. Reinstate the draft, have Congress actually declare a war so that we have a Constitutional War for once, put our industry on a war footing, and get us gardening victory gardens in our back yards and perhaps in 18 months we can get moving on more fronts.

Even then there is only so much we can do. Georgia is not all that far from Gallipoli and it's been almost 100 years now, but more than 100 since the Crimean war...

Can we bomb &/or invade any country on the planet we desire? Yes.
Can we do it at any time we want? No - bombing can happen quick, boots on the ground - not so quick.
Can we keep the ground we take no matter where it is or how long political change takes? Well that is the question that has McCain & Obama as the two party candidates this time around. You do the math.
Can we be the world's police force? Not realistically, we've been there and done that.
Can we promote freedom without doing any of the above? Yes, and that is what will have to happen for Georgia sadly.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Do you remember Vietnam?

Yeah I remember Vietnam. In what context are you asking?

I remember we were late in helping out the French.

I remember fighting an insane war due to the rules of engagement forced upon our armed forces.

I remember a liberal media hellbent on making sure we lost.

I remember despite all of that our armed forces performed admirably.

I remember that if we would have stayed the North was about to surrender.

I remember pulling out early and leaving millions to die.

Yeah I remember Vietnam. Is there something you meant that I didn't cover?

 

[indyninja]

Your previous post reminds me of failed foreign policy that got us into conflicts like Vietnam. It sounds to me like you have got your own modern day "domino theory" going on.

Yeah I remember Vietnam. Is there something you meant that I didn't cover?

 

[indyninja]

Like Iraq? We need to stop getting bogged down in this crap.

The difference between us and Russia is dramatic. When we take control of a country we build it up and give it back.

 

[MilitaryArms]

All good points, but I've not yet heard anyone address the issue of Georgia being an ally of ours. They aren't some 3rd world nation we have no relationship with that got invaded, they are allies, ones which have committed their forces to our war on terror.

Now we're saying, "hey, thanks for all the help! Good luck with your fight with Russia, sorry we can't help out"? What is the point of having allies if we turn tail and run when our allies get into a bind? Especially when the ally we're talking about is helping us in our war elsewhere in the world?

Who in their right mind would ally themselves with America in the future if we show that we abandon our allies when the going gets tough? But we sure will take their troops when we need them...

The same voices in 1936 were heard when Europe was starting to feel the pain of Nazi aggression. We had people back here saying "we can't get involved in another European war" and we abandoned our allies until we were attacked by Japan.

Had we acted earlier and came to the direct assistance of our allies early on, we could have ended the war before millions of Jews were needlessly slaughtered and before most of Europe would be destroyed by fighting. That's the price of inaction in the face of a determined aggressor.

Russia is in expansion mode. If we do absolutely nothing, and the world appeases them... and we ignore the needs of our ally... then get ready for even more dire consequences down the road.

Russia may not respond well to force in your view, but I recall an event in history where Russia was at its military apex yet we backed them down with force. It was called the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Russia is a shell of its former self compared to the 1962 Russia. They do NOT want conflict with NATO. If they really thought war with NATO was imminent, they would back down immediately. But as it is, they are banking on the notion America is weak, scared of conflict, and can be pacified by aggressive posturing. It would appear, to a point based upon what I read on line, they are right. They are also banking on the fact Germany and France have turned into cowards and won't fight along side America. There's a perfect example of a useless alliance and how it can come back to bite you in the arse later down the road.

But I also know that the nation was evenly divided about entering WWII even after the attack on Perl Harbor, which I personally find mind boggling. But it's true, at any given moment regardless of the threat, there is a large segment of our population that doesn't want to fight for any reason.

With all of that said, NATO is weak. America is stretched thin. Russia knows this and is seizing the moment and will likely get away with it.

Unilateral action by the US would be ill advised... and since our allies (France / Germany) are cowardly weaklings... we really can't get too involved. So I'm just babbling away here and not offering any real solutions.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Like Iraq? We need to stop getting bogged down in this crap.

I'm not sure what all you know about why we went to Iraq. I happen to think the reasons we went are both valid and necessary. The fact we are winning is not "bogged down"

I have read and studied this conflict and the reasons behind it. Had we not went, I'm sure we would be living in a much different and more dangerous world.

Your previous post reminds me of failed foreign policy that got us into conflicts like Vietnam.

It wasn't failed policy that got us into Vietnam. It was failed policy that waited too long to enter into it, just as we did in WWII. It was failed policy the limited the resources our troops had. It was failed policy that prevented us from chasing down the enemy. It was failed policy that brought us home early and let millions die because of it.

It sounds to me like you have got your own modern day "domino theory" going on.

How many pieces have to fall before people with your line of thinking wake up and say maybe we should have done something earlier.
If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Policy of containment is very similar to our policy today of "freedom". After communism failed (or is failing), containment was heralded as a success. We turned (as a nation) our attention to promotion of democracy around the world, but also, preservation of the nations forged in the ashes of the former Warsaw Pact. Unfortunately, the powers that be (whether Russia or the coutries formed like Georgia) decided that they wanted to form thier own destinies. However, Russia is still used to managing territories with displays of force.

Vietnam is over. There are many parallels to it in many of today's conflicts, however, nothing is "exactly" like Vietnam. We learn lessons from former conflicts, but comparing them to Vietnam will only give us insight on how to deal with it as if it was Vietnam, wherin we forget that each conflict is different and cannot be handled like Vietnam all the time. Its not a "scenery has changed, different people, same conflict", every conflict is vastly different and uncomparable to the previous.

Iraq is like the Afghanistan for the Russians, but with vastly different outcomes. We are "winning" there, yes, however at a cost. Its an unpopular war (as Afghanistan was in Russia) but a war that we threw our full effort (political and hard power) into, unlike the literally half hearted and poorly organized efforts of the Russians in Afghanistan. Like the aforementioned rant however, every conflict is different for each country.

Doomed to repeat it? Yes and no. We will repeat history, given what I see around me. Poor attention or little attention given to various media outlets (focusing on one for info) in addition to a lack of world understanding by many American citizens will definitely drive us into a repeat of something horrible. However, it wont be "another Vietnam" or "another Korea", it will be a conflict of similar magnitude, but not specifics.

Just an educated opinion (double major!!!)

 

[Paul]

All good points, but I've not yet heard anyone address the issue of Georgia being an ally of ours. They aren't some 3rd world nation we have no relationship with that got invaded, they are allies, ones which have committed their forces to our war on terror.

Now we're saying, "hey, thanks for all the help good luck with your fight with Russia we can't help out"? What is the point of having allies if we turn tail and run when our allies get into a bind? Especially when the ally we're talking about is helping us in our war elsewhere in the world?

Who in their right mind would ally themselves with America in the future if we show that we abandon our allies when the going gets tough? But we sure will take their troops when we need them...

The same voices in 1936 were heard when Europe was starting to feel the pain of Nazi aggression. We had people back here saying "we can't get involved in another European war" and we abandoned our allies until we were attacked by Japan.

Had we acted earlier and came to the direct assistance of our allies early on, we could have ended the war before millions of Jews were needlessly slaughtered and before most of Europe would be destroyed by fighting. That's the price of inaction in the face of a determined aggressor.

Russia is in expansion mode. If we do absolutely nothing, and the world appeases them... and we ignore the needs of our ally... then get ready for even more dire consequences down the road.

Russia may not respond well to force in your view, but I recall an event in history where Russia was at its military apex yet we backed them down with force. It was called the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Russia is a shell of its former self compared to the 1962 Russia. They do NOT want conflict with NATO. If they really thought war with NATO was imminent, they would back down immediately. But as it is, they are banking on the notion America is weak, scared of conflict, and can be pacified by aggressive posturing. It would appear, to a point based upon what I read on line, they are right. They are also banking on the fact Germany and France have turned into cowards and won't fight along side America. There's a perfect example of a useless alliance and how it can come back to bite you in the arse later down the road.

But I also know that the nation was evenly divided about entering WWII even after the attack on Perl Harbor, which I personally find mind boggling. But it's true, at any given moment regardless of the threat, there is a large segment of our population that doesn't want to fight for any reason.

With all of that said, NATO is weak. America is stretched thin. Russia knows this and is seizing the moment and will likely get away with it.

Unilateral action by the US would be ill advised... and since our allies (France / Germany) are cowardly weaklings... we really can't get too involved. So I'm just babbling away here and not offering any real solutions.

I said that in my 1st post... but +1

 

[MilitaryArms]

I said that in my 1st post... but +1

My bad. It's good to know two of us are thinking a like at least.

 

[flagtag]

Some people see only what they want to see (read, hear) - or what they were "programmed" to see..
One has to look at ALL sides of the "story", like was noted here, not just to a "peacenic" interpretation.
With age comes wisdom and insight. (usually) Colleges are bad about teaching the "hate America" views - whatever the US does is bad, etc. Hollywierd pushes this view also in their "works". (eg: "Guns are bad! Get rid of all guns!" (Except those we use in our movies and tv. We need them to make millions of $s) And the kids just eat it up.

 

[SavageEagle]

I think that if we get off our arse and help Georgia One of two things will happen.
1) Russia will back down and say how dare you and we will re-enter another "hot" Cold War with them
2) Russia will deploy their sheer numbers to the border and threaten until we leave. If we don't leave, Enter WAR with Russia.

They have greater numbers than us. But our lack of forces we make up with better trained forces. The Russians lost 13 planes, give or take a few, in the third day of the conflict. 13 planes. In Iraq, where insurgents are using laser guided Iranian shoulder fired missles and Heat seeking rockets, we have yet to lose one plane due to enemy fire. That's just our Air Force. Deploy our full military might on Russia and they might be defeated. At a great cost, but we could do it.

Then there's the issue of the 10's of thousands of short, medium, and ICBM nuclear warheads they claim to have disarmed/lost/sold/whatever. Should they be on the verge of defeat, I have no doubt in my mind that they would use them just to "save face". This is why we must tread lightly, but we must also defend our greatest Ally in the region.

 

[flagtag]

I think that if we get off our arse and help Georgia One of two things will happen.
1) Russia will back down and say how dare you and we will re-enter another "hot" Cold War with them
2) Russia will deploy their sheer numbers to the border and threaten until we leave. If we don't leave, Enter WAR with Russia.

They have greater numbers than us. But our lack of forces we make up with better trained forces. The Russians lost 13 planes, give or take a few, in the third day of the conflict. 13 planes. In Iraq, where insurgents are using laser guided Iranian shoulder fired missles and Heat seeking rockets, we have yet to lose one plane due to enemy fire. That's just our Air Force. Deploy our full military might on Russia and they might be defeated. At a great cost, but we could do it.

Then there's the issue of the 10's of thousands of short, medium, and ICBM nuclear warheads they claim to have disarmed/lost/sold/whatever. Should they be on the verge of defeat, I have no doubt in my mind that they would use them just to "save face". This is why we must tread lightly, but we must also defend our greatest Ally in the region.

In the meantime, Russia is threatening to attack Poland because of the anti-missles thing. (Condi and Poland signed the papers agreeing to it today I guess)
So, they have no intention of backing off. They want to move forward and are using the whispiest of excuses to "justify' thier actions.
Russia needs to be "slapped down" before they do much more damage.

 

[sanzo87]

The one thing i have seen in how every one seems to talk about Russia's military is that everyone takes them so lightly just because they are not the huge nation they became after WWII. At the same time you are talking about a nation that in WWII not only held Germany at bay but pushed them back hard. even thought they were lacking resources like an ample supply of weapons and trained solders. They were only giving every other person a out dated rifle (and by out dated I mean not top of the line. though this rifle is still used today) and the men in between the guys with rifles ammo. Now they do not lack weapons. And true they have lost 13 plans but what kind is the real question. The newest MIG is more than a (equal) match for the F-16 and F-15 fighters we have in the air right now. And are we better trained I would say most likely but going toe to toe with a nation that could make a larger army on the ground (note I am saying ground troops) well trained or not is not the wisest of choices. Try to recall what Russia can do on the ground even against a far superior force (in training and technology). Also I would not call the Cuban Missile Crisis a show of weakness on Russia’s part that was a well played bluff for us and Russia nor us wanted to test this bluff. (and yes I do mean bluff) Russia nor us wanted to have to actually use our ICBM’s. because we all knew the end result. So should we help with training I can see this been something we could do. But money we simply can not with the instability of our economy. And as for going toe to toe with then that’s just saying lets start another world war.

 

[SavageEagle]

Whether we do anything now or not, Russia is going to push us into a world war. We have to do something now. Something harsh. Regardless what they do, they can't be allowed to trample nations.

Our forces are far supeior to theirs, more numbers or not. Their newest mig is a match for the F-16 and F-18 because that's what they built it to fight. But not the F22. And their tanks are no match for the Abrams Tanks. They don't have Drones like we do. And their troops don't have the Combat experiance ours have. That's what matters. But again, I reiterate. THEY WON'T HESITATE TO USE NUKES!!! They will do it for Mother Russia and do it with pride. They do have moral issues, EX KGB military people with their own agendas, and moral issues that our forces would impose on their troops.

The CMC wasn't a Bluff. It was a Test. Which we more or less passed. But those days of a President who will man up will be long gone if Obama becomes President. That is why this is happening. They are testing us again. And they know McCain will man up, Obama wont.