Shotgun for HD misconception

[gunman41mag]

Guess you didn't read this
Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at very close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.
The second thing is that birdshot can make a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is less likely to penetrate multiple interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house; however, if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger

 

[gunman41mag]

The first line under shotgun: "Use buckshot. Slugs and birdshot are useful in some limited and uncommon situations."

The concept that "birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead", however, is incorrect.

Birdshot is comprised of many very small projectiles. Every projectile has X weight, and is traveling at Y velocity. Each projectile will be capable of penetrating so far into a target - as it deforms, expending energy, it slows down even more.

The fact that many projectiles are flying in close proximity at the same time does not increase the penetration of any single projectile. It sounds good when you say it - but in reality that is not how physics works.

One good example that demonstrates this is the wide array of ballistic gelatin and other material penetration tests that have been conducted over the years.

A solid column of lead would penetrate like a solid column of lead... a cluster of very small projectiles will penetrate like a cluster of very small projectiles.

SHOTGUN AMMUNITION BY CALIBER (Gauge)
The shotgun is the ne plus ultra of manstoppers. No doubt you have heard a lot of nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" and "sub-machine guns" and the like. The fact is that the shotgun is the most effective firearm for short-range personal defense. For example: an Uzi or Heckler & Koch sub-machine gun has about 340 ft-lbs. of impact energy - a 12 gauge shotgun has 2500 to 3100 ft-lbs. of impact energy.

 

[451_Detonics]

Fact...in order to be a viable SD round the ammo needs to be able to penetrate 12-16 inches.

Fact...birdshot doesn't come close to that type of penetration

Answer...use the proper ammo but always bear in mind the direction you are shooting. Aim high chest to avoid small children and teach them they need to be on the floor at the first sign of trouble. Having a set family emergency plan is extremely important.

 

[gunman41mag]

Fact...in order to be a viable SD round the ammo needs to be able to penetrate 12-16 inches.

Fact...birdshot doesn't come close to that type of penetration

Answer...use the proper ammo but always bear in mind the direction you are shooting. Aim high chest to avoid small children and teach them they need to be on the floor at the first sign of trouble. Having a set family emergency plan is extremely important.

I don't know of any man that has 12-16 inches of face & throat

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

SHOTGUN AMMUNITION BY CALIBER (Gauge)
The shotgun is the ne plus ultra of manstoppers. No doubt you have heard a lot of nonsense about the lethality of "assault rifles" and "sub-machine guns" and the like. The fact is that the shotgun is the most effective firearm for short-range personal defense. For example: an Uzi or Heckler & Koch sub-machine gun has about 340 ft-lbs. of impact energy - a 12 gauge shotgun has 2500 to 3100 ft-lbs. of impact energy.

I think you overlooked the entire concept regarding each individual projectile having its own mass, and the fact that with very few exceptions - something that is not going to penetrate walls is not going to consistently penetrate the vital organs of a human.

People can claim things have all the "stopping power" in the world - but lets see some actual proof other than an opinion.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

I don't know of any man that has 12-16 inches of face & throat

12-16 inches in ballistic gelatin is not correlative with 12-16 inches of penetration in the human body.

I also disagree with labeling any ammunition that has to be shot into the face/throat a reliable SD round. If a round is not proven to consistently neutralize a threat when fired into the center of mass of a large human, I will choose another round.

 

[Hookeye]

Fact: I think #2 bismuth too expensive to waste on a thug

 

[gunman41mag]

I think you overlooked the entire concept regarding each individual projectile having its own mass, and the fact that with very few exceptions - something that is not going to penetrate walls is not going to consistently penetrate the vital organs of a human.

People can claim things have all the "stopping power" in the world - but lets see some actual proof other than an opinion.

REAL WORLD facts is the #6 will destroy a man's head, eyes, nose, & throat will be gone

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

REAL WORLD facts is the #6 will destroy a man's head, eyes, nose, & throat will be gone

Real world fact - the man may also have a gun, and you may not be as accurate in the dark using a flashlight to see your target as you are at the range. Hitting a moving intruder in the neck in the dark is more of a challenge than I believe most people realize.

Real world fact - 00 Buckshot will destroy a man's chest, and is a round capable of consistently reaching the vital organs of a grown man through thick clothing. #6 birdshot is not.

By using #6 birdshot, you are significantly limiting your ability to neutralize a threat. With correct shot placement it could be lethal - but you are introducing a much greater chance of failure.

With the correct shot placement, a .22 is lethal. With the correct shot placement, a slingshot is lethal. I do not plan on adopting either as a home defense tool anytime in the near future.

 

[Hookeye]

Define "birdhshot" please.............

The touted "Box of Truth" used #8's. Hell I don't even shoot evil Mouring doves with that crap (use 7.5's).

Anybody try #4 buffered magnum turkey loads? I've crumpled turkeys to 42 yards with that stuff.

Both "bird shot", but big friggin' difference.

FWIW I run #2 bismuth and drop geese like wet washrags at 50 yards.

That too a form of "bird shot".

IMHO #8's are for clays only, or if wanting to offer support for something else in a biased test

 

[gunman41mag]

In Home Defense the thug isn't going to be farther than maybe 18 feet, at short distance #6 will be deadly

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

In Home Defense the thug isn't going to be farther than maybe 18 feet, at short distance #6 might be deadly

FTFY

While every round has stories where people walk away after being shot, and no round can be considered 100% reliable every time - shootings where birdshot is used seem to end in non lethal injury the vast majority of the time.http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Man blasted with birdshot in Holly Park | Seattle 911 — A Police and Crime Blog - seattlepi.com

Man, 25, Arrested After Being Treated At ER For Bird Shot Wounds « CBS Los Angeles

Police: Armed man hit with birdshot is arrested | police, chavez, arrested - News - The Orange County Register

Man tried to steal metal, got birdshot, sheriff says *| ajc.com

http://www.vvdailypress.com/articles/woman-28450-face-injured.html

 

[hammer24]

Not really arguing one way or the other here, but this thread got me interested so I started researching birdshot wounds. Do an image search, WARNING: if you have a weak stomach don't do an image search! Some of the wounds looked pretty incapacitating! One dude lost half of his skull, but survived. Another notable one was not so lucky. He had a hole in his chest you could stick your fist in, and you can clearly count the little pellet holes rimming the wound. Some ripped flesh from arms and legs while others you can tell were shot from a greater distance by the spread of the pattern (covered the entire torso/ head area.)
WARNING! GRAPHIC! https://www.google.com/search?q=bir...w&biw=1269&bih=610&sei=vMqdT-v0CorbgQf529CHDw
I think we all understand that buckshot is the ideal choice, but when it comes to shooting somebody with birdshot at typical HD ranges...well, sometimes a pictures worth a thousand words.

 

[whocares]

Really?

I really dont understand how this thread went this direction. I doubt anyone would argue that #6 birdshot is going to stop a threat like 00buck or slugs. I could have said #5 or #4 shot, but for an interior of home scenario both can potentially overpenetrate. Like posted earlier about crumpling turkeys at 42 yards with #4. The #6 shot is espescially well equipped for same room engagement because it dies spread so quickly upon impact. Yeah its a bird load, NO ITS NOT DESIGNED TO KILL LITTLE BIRDIES AT 15 FEET. Thats called a Red Ryder and you will shoot your eye out before stopping a bad guy.

If anyone in a normal to large size home can look across the interior of that one room and think that a #6 shot from a 12 gauge will not cause an explosive wound is either kidding themselves, doesnt even have a shotgun, or lives in a mansion where the distance between interior walls is 20 yards.

 

[IncendiaryGunner]

Well, I know for a fact that at around 20 yards #7 1/2 birdshot will not consistently put down large coyotes... #6 is not much heavier....

I assume that humans are hardier than coyotes....

The only argument I have attempted to make is that the same reason you chose birdshot - less penetration - significantly reduces the chance of it being successful in a self defense scenario.

The fact that the shot does not spread is less vital than the weight of the shot coupled with the velocity. It is the weight of the shot that significantly reduces the penetration - and if the penetration is reduced to the degree that it does not penetrate walls, it is likely not reliable at stopping a determined attacker.

If you hit them just right, it could kill them. If you hit them and the injury is not life threatening, they may still be scared off... However, if the attacker is armed and determined, you may be killed in the encounter.

 

[whocares]

I agree

Well, I know for a fact that at around 20 yards #7 1/2 birdshot will not consistently put down large coyotes... #6 is not much heavier....

I assume that humans are hardier than coyotes....

The only argument I have attempted to make is that the same reason you chose birdshot - less penetration - significantly reduces the chance of it being successful in a self defense scenario.

The fact that the shot does not spread is less vital than the weight of the shot coupled with the velocity. It is the weight of the shot that significantly reduces the penetration - and if the penetration is reduced to the degree that it does not penetrate walls, it is likely not reliable at stopping a determined attacker.

If you hit them just right, it could kill them. If you hit them and the injury is not life threatening, they may still be scared off... However, if the attacker is armed and determined, you may be killed in the encounter.

Of course! Now take that same injured coyote from 20 yards and bring him into 5 yards which is 15 feet. The #7 shot will knock it off its feet, literally and permanently.

 

[Kart29]

I really dont understand how this thread went this direction. I doubt anyone would argue that #6 birdshot is going to stop a threat like 00buck or slugs. I could have said #5 or #4 shot, but for an interior of home scenario both can potentially overpenetrate. Like posted earlier about crumpling turkeys at 42 yards with #4. The #6 shot is espescially well equipped for same room engagement because it dies spread so quickly upon impact. Yeah its a bird load, NO ITS NOT DESIGNED TO KILL LITTLE BIRDIES AT 15 FEET. Thats called a Red Ryder and you will shoot your eye out before stopping a bad guy.

If anyone in a normal to large size home can look across the interior of that one room and think that a #6 shot from a 12 gauge will not cause an explosive wound is either kidding themselves, doesnt even have a shotgun, or lives in a mansion where the distance between interior walls is 20 yards.

Oh come one. This topic ALWAYS goes this direction. Every time. Never gets old. That's why we keep having it.

The thing is, your shots could miss... kids may not be in the other room as you thought... don't trust the health of your children on an interior wall making a 3" load from a 12 ga. into a harmless sprinkle of dust. If you are pulling the trigger on a person inside your home it's because you think the lives of yourself or family are in immediate threat of deadly harm. In that case it's worth it to do whatever it takes to eliminate the certain and immediate danger and accept the concomitant risks that are unavoidably associated. Never assume that birdshot is not going to present any deadly risk to unintended victims inside a small house.

I'd suggest that any supposed amount of increased safety from the use of birdshot is largely overestimated and not worth reducing the lethality of the selected payload.

 

[gunman41mag]

Guess I'll have to get rid of my shotgun & get a better HD gun like a 380

 

[Oliver]

Here:
gunman41 question: Does 00buck hit harder than birdshot? YES
Incendiarygunner question: Can birdshot possibly kill someone? YES

/THREAD

 

[techres]

We tried this in brown county on a test rig.

Guess what?

It all overpenetrates. All.

We setup about 4 rooms worth of drywall and more and in the end everything blew right through it.

So, while one myth here is the lethality of birdshot, the other is the lack of penetration in drywall of birdshot.

Seriously, go out, try it yourself, you might be amazed.

Pick a lethal round to do a lethal hit. Train hard to put it where it needs to go in the worst situation imaginable. Make the best shot you can in the instant only if you have to - but if you do, make it count.