Saw a woman beating the literal s**t out of her 3 yr old today...

[Bill of Rights]

Great rundown, Guy, and thank you. Thanks also to the OP for pointing out the mental dynamic... "When is it OK to use my gun in this situation?" Unless that's one big woman and you're a small-built man, (or unless she knows martial arts and kicks your :moon:, but by then, it's far too late), I can't think of many times a gun would be called for in this situation. Physically restraining her from continuing the attack might be called for. Note that I said, "might". Kudos to you for thinking about this before the situation arose, rather than actually grabbing a weapon (like a tire iron) and just braining the woman..

Consider that as a parent, you might find yourself disciplining your child and someone else jumps into the middle... You might later thank them for stopping you from doing something you'd later regret, but at the time, I don't know many parents who would not be highly ticked off and direct that rage toward you. (and better an adult than a child, too...) Very convoluted situation.

The other thought that comes to mind is what Guy posted:

A citizen's arrest is lawful in the presence of a known felony. I don't know that I know all the crimes for which the law defines the penalty to be in "felony territory". I would not want to hesitate if my assistance was needed, but I also wouldn't want to do the whole "citizen's arrest" thing and be wrong.

Additional questions: Do you have to specify "citizen's arrest" when doing it? Do you have to Mirandize the arrestee?

Thanks for all answers!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[dieselman]

or just 300 lbs and crazy while you are only 150lbs with a bum leg!

i am 5'7" 130 pounds. lol.

 

[ihateiraq]

man, i was in that kids shoes plenty of times growing up. i doubt i was three though.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

Good thing you didn't "brandish" your firearm.. you'd be in some deep trouble especially considering she was no threat to you... but I think holding her.. i.e. citizens arrest would have been alright to do. The best thing to do is what you did.. write down as much information as possible and contact the police before she left or even after she left. There is no reason at all to hit a child, period. People like that disgust me.. and to be quite honest.. I think you handled it perfect. Hopefully someone will hold her accountable for her actions.. but don't hold your breath.

 

[RachelMarie]

I didn't read the whole thread (I'm exhausted), but I couldn't not put in my input...


You did what you could, considering the situation. I would not bring the gun in play.
That being said, I hope with everything I have that CPS catches up with this lady. This makes me sick. I've never seen anything like that and am not sure how I would handle it. This is one situation that I am not sure if I could have kept my cool in. People are sick, and it would have taken everything I had not to snatch that baby and run like hell, even though I have better judgment than that.

My daughter is 2, She's hit me in the face numerous times. Mostly on accident but there have been a time or 2 where it was on purpose. NEVER would I take it to the extent the lady in question did. Holy cow.

Not only do I respect you for calling it in and getting her information...I Thank you. Someone needs to stand up for abused children, even if it's a complete stranger.

That being said, Chances are, she'll get away with a slap on the wrists. Sad? Yes...True? Yes. You have to nearly kill a child for CPS to actually TAKE the child from the home. But atleast it is now on record.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I agree with intervening in this situation due to the described severity of the beating the child was taking. No gun here. I must also add however that without actually witnessing it first hand, I don't know what the right answer is. There are far too many people out there that will call in a report of child abuse for a slap in the mouth or a well deserved spanking. It has gotten to the point where children literally walk all over parents in public because parents are afraid to discipline them. I am not one of those scared parents, when my children need discipline they will get discipline. The whole beating them about the head and face thing sort of goes beyond that and I don't consider that discipline but rather abuse. As a child, I got more than my fair share of smacks in the mouth and spankings, as well as sitting in the car alone while everyone else ate dinner, had ice cream, etc....That's another thing you don't see anymore, kids sent to the car. In todays society I can understand why, but boy was it effective.....

 

[antsi]

put a call in to child services.. gave them the story and license plate number of the car... going to file a police report tomorrow.

Good for you.

This woman does not need to be in charge of kids. Clearly and completely unfit.

Unfortunately, they will probably just make her jump through a couple of hoops and then give her kid back. She will probably just learn to beat the kid in private from now on.

 

[bonsaijackson]

not so long ago a women was in all kinds of news cause she was on the parking lot camera doing exactly this same type of crap. Might be worth calling the krogers to see if they have the tape cause, I bet they do....

 

[groovatron]

I agree with intervening in this situation due to the described severity of the beating the child was taking. No gun here. I must also add however that without actually witnessing it first hand, I don't know what the right answer is

So you agree as long as dieselman isn't lying. Makes sense to me.

There are far too many people out there that will call in a report of child abuse for a slap in the mouth or a well deserved spanking. It has gotten to the point where children literally walk all over parents in public because parents are afraid to discipline them. .....

I would have to disagree. If the threat of CPS is enough to stop parents from whapping there kid one while I'm standing in line at the grocery store, then fine with me. Either way, I wouldn't publicly spank my child. I also wouldn't let my boy walk all over me in public. That's just my way of dealing with things. Do what you will under your own roof. I respect your right to do so. But in public, it should never happen. That's how dieselman's situation started.

I am not one of those scared parents, when my children need discipline they will get discipline. The whole beating them about the head and face thing sort of goes beyond that and I don't consider that discipline but rather abuse......

I'm not a scared parent. When my child needs discipline, he gets it. I just choose to go about it in a different way..... I agree that "beating them about the head and face" would be child abuse.

As a child, I got more than my fair share of smacks in the mouth and spankings, as well as sitting in the car alone while everyone else ate dinner, had ice cream, etc....That's another thing you don't see anymore, kids sent to the car. In todays society I can understand why, but boy was it effective.....

I'm glad it worked with you. Things are different for all kids. As a child, I wasn't very responsive to physical punishment. I have felt the same way from my first memory to the present....... I absolutely hate being physically domintated. I resent it and I will fight it. If I can't fight back physically, then I will mentally make up for it down the road. Either way, I tend to be a vindictive s.o.b. ..................I guess my point comes down to this. Threre is obviously a difference between a spanking and a beating. But drawing that line in public only invites situations like this. If you can't control your kid in public without physical punishment, then you shouldn't be lettin' 'em out of the house yet.....Personally, I've never heard of anyone calling CPS on a stranger for smacking threre kids in a non-harmful way. 99.9% of people would turn their head and then proceed to use it as the story of the week in their various social circles..........................................Anyway, way to go dieselman for stepping in. Lots of good post here on the "when to introduce the pistol" topic.

 

[ar15junkie]

or just 300 lbs and crazy while you are only 150lbs with a bum leg!

i am 5'7" 130 pounds. lol.

Learn about disparity of force and the other "issues" which come along with a license to carry. There is more to it then strapping on a handgun.

 

[Cygnus]

OP. Great job.
next would be to follow-up like you said. Also ask if the Kroger has this on tape from their lot cams. I rememebr a story in the last 3-4 years where a woamna was seen beating her 2y.o. on a WM or Kmart parking lot cam and got arrested. CPS monitoring etc.

 

[JetGirl]

That's another thing you don't see anymore, kids sent to the car. In todays society I can understand why, but boy was it effective.....

Because in our age of electronics and entertaining gadgets, being sent to your room, the car, or wherever isn't a punishment anymore. It's a chance to catch up on game time or texting.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

Learn about disparity of force and the other "issues" which come along with a license to carry. There is more to it then strapping on a handgun.

I assume you are speaking of a force continuum?

Everyone should read up on what that is... it could save them from a lot of trouble.

 

[indianajoe]

Better sooner than later, you'll want to invest in some training for yourself. GunLawyer's "Comprehensive Indiana Gun Law" class would be well worth your time and $ (and doesn't pinch too bad, with his rate for INGO members). Appreciate you telling the story, getting a start on understanding the responsibilities and limitations, and standing up for that kid.

 

[RA8]

second question: seeing as she was inside her car doing all this, would it be against any kind of law to open her car door and drag her away from the child?

If you were that kid, would you want someone to stop that curse word from pummeling you?

 

[RA8]

A citizen's arrest is lawful in the presence of a known felony. I don't know that I know all the crimes for which the law defines the penalty to be in "felony territory". I would not want to hesitate if my assistance was needed, but I also wouldn't want to do the whole "citizen's arrest" thing and be wrong.

Additional questions: Do you have to specify "citizen's arrest" when doing it? Do you have to Mirandize the arrestee?

Thanks for all answers!

Blessings,
Bill

In Indiana, from what Ive seen before, making a citizens arrest is to use ONLY enough force to keep the person on scene until police arrive. Obviously stopping an attack would warrant the same use of force, just enough to stop it. Even following someone and describing where they are could be the maximum necessary force for non violent crimes. Now that you have them restrained, or blocked in somehow, call the police immediately(or yell for someone to do so). I've done this several times after fights, and I've never been told to declare that I'm doing a citizens arrest. Police are usually more than happy to just take them, and figure out what happened. If you hurt the person, unnecessarily, like slam their head in the ground, or poke an eye, or choke them out, and drop them on the ground, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY LIABLE FOR CIVIL AND CRIMINAL CHARGES! If you tell someone to stop, and they stop, there's ABSOLUTELY no reason to touch that person.

In California, The restaurant I worked for had forms, with instructions to say something to the effect of, "I am placing you under citizens arrest, because I've witnessed you committing a crime, I am not a police officer, but I am going to keep you here until one arrives" then we just signed them, and handed them over with a police report.

Also, It's not your responsibility to read any rights, since you are not the one who is building a case against the person. I wonder though, If you did rattle off those rights if they could use anything that person said to you against them in court.

 

[LLDJR]

I think about this "when is the right time" subject often, for me it has to be life threatening.

You did the right thing IMO

 

[RainRider]

I agree with most here , the handgun should stay put in this situation. You would probably be the one ending up in jail . The woman would go home and beat the **** out of the kid again. You did the right thing calling law enforcement.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Good thing you didn't "brandish" your firearm.. you'd be in some deep trouble especially considering she was no threat to you... but I think holding her.. i.e. citizens arrest would have been alright to do. The best thing to do is what you did.. write down as much information as possible and contact the police before she left or even after she left. There is no reason at all to hit a child, period. People like that disgust me.. and to be quite honest.. I think you handled it perfect. Hopefully someone will hold her accountable for her actions.. but don't hold your breath.

No such thing as "brandishing" in Indiana, but using the level of force necessary to stop the attack is both permissible and lawful.

I agree with intervening in this situation due to the described severity of the beating the child was taking. No gun here. I must also add however that without actually witnessing it first hand, I don't know what the right answer is. There are far too many people out there that will call in a report of child abuse for a slap in the mouth or a well deserved spanking. It has gotten to the point where children literally walk all over parents in public because parents are afraid to discipline them. I am not one of those scared parents, when my children need discipline they will get discipline. The whole beating them about the head and face thing sort of goes beyond that and I don't consider that discipline but rather abuse. As a child, I got more than my fair share of smacks in the mouth and spankings, as well as sitting in the car alone while everyone else ate dinner, had ice cream, etc....That's another thing you don't see anymore, kids sent to the car. In todays society I can understand why, but boy was it effective.....

If I had a small child today, no way would I take him/her to the car and leave them there; partly, I know what risks are present with kid-snatching, but I think I'd actually be more afraid of the "neglect of a dependant" charge that would be made. Ain't that a kick in the stones when a parent, using a tried, true, effective, and non-physical form of discipline has more to fear from his government than he does from a kidnapper?

Learn about disparity of force and the other "issues" which come along with a license to carry. There is more to it then strapping on a handgun.

^^This.

In Indiana, from what Ive seen before, making a citizens arrest is to use ONLY enough force to keep the person on scene until police arrive. Obviously stopping an attack would warrant the same use of force, just enough to stop it. Even following someone and describing where they are could be the maximum necessary force for non violent crimes. Now that you have them restrained, or blocked in somehow, call the police immediately(or yell for someone to do so). I've done this several times after fights, and I've never been told to declare that I'm doing a citizens arrest. Police are usually more than happy to just take them, and figure out what happened. If you hurt the person, unnecessarily, like slam their head in the ground, or poke an eye, or choke them out, and drop them on the ground, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY LIABLE FOR CIVIL AND CRIMINAL CHARGES! If you tell someone to stop, and they stop, there's ABSOLUTELY no reason to touch that person.

In California, The restaurant I worked for had forms, with instructions to say something to the effect of, "I am placing you under citizens arrest, because I've witnessed you committing a crime, I am not a police officer, but I am going to keep you here until one arrives" then we just signed them, and handed them over with a police report.

Also, It's not your responsibility to read any rights, since you are not the one who is building a case against the person. I wonder though, If you did rattle off those rights if they could use anything that person said to you against them in court.

I know I can't use unnecessary force. Hell, most of the time, I'd prefer not to use any force.

Thanks for relating the actions you took in California. Does anyone have info as to Indiana? Is it necessary to identify that you are not a police officer, so long as you do NOT falsely identify yourself as being one?
Example: in the above OP, had I been the one there, would I have been within the law to go up, order the woman to stop and when she did not, grab her and take her down and hold her there, telling her "I'm placing you under arrest"?

Guy? Kirk? Bueller? Anyone?

I also wonder as to what the actions of the child would be, seeing his/her mother taken down like that? I know that domestics are a LEO's nightmare simply because of the former victim quickly siding with the attacker against the (LEO) outsider. How likely is it that the kid will now attack his rescuer?

It's almost enough to make you just not want to get involved. Almost.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[hardtrailz400]

Just shoot her and make the world a better place. We do not need that kind of person reporoducing again or killing the child they already have.