Saw a woman beating the literal s**t out of her 3 yr old today...

[dieselman]

So i was meeting a friend in the parking lot of the Kroger at 79th and Fall Creek near my home in NE Indy this evening. As we stood outside the car and discussed where we wanted to go eat dinner, i witnessed a woman drag her 3 yr old through the parking lot, throw it in the back seat of her SUV, and proceed to hit it repeatedly very hard about 20-30 times in the face as it was pinned against the door. When my buddy and I approached the car, she got out, told us that the child had hit her in the face first (keep in mind, this child was no older than 3, maybe 4) and that it was her kid and that she could do what she wanted. As she opened As we were both sickened by this, we got her license number and called the IMPD and reported what we saw.

But that brings me to my question, had I been carrying (in the ltch app process atm), at what point, if any would it have been legitimate to use my firearm to gain control of the situation? I know it would have had to get way out of hand for me to end up pulling the trigger in a public parking lot, and part of my gut feels like it would be best to keep it holstered, but part of me also feels like that at least brandishing the weapon would have been an option to protect this child.

I dont want to sound like one of those crazy people that the gun control people love to use in their arguments, pulling my firearm to perform whatever vigilante justice I deem necessary, but I feel like the safety of this little kid is also a big concern.

I'm just a little shaken up right now and its kinda eating at me I didnt do more to stop it earlier...

 

[42769vette]

So i was meeting a friend in the parking lot of the Kroger at 79th and Fall Creek near my home in NE Indy this evening. As we stood outside the car and discussed where we wanted to go eat dinner, i witnessed a woman drag her 3 yr old through the parking lot, throw it in the back seat of her SUV, and proceed to hit it repeatedly very hard about 20-30 times in the face as it was pinned against the door. When my buddy and I approached the car, she got out, told us that the child had hit her in the face first (keep in mind, this child was no older than 3, maybe 4) and that it was her kid and that she could do what she wanted. As she opened As we were both sickened by this, we got her license number and called the IMPD and reported what we saw.

But that brings me to my question, had I been carrying (in the ltch app process atm), at what point, if any would it have been legitimate to use my firearm to gain control of the situation? I know it would have had to get way out of hand for me to end up pulling the trigger in a public parking lot, and part of my gut feels like it would be best to keep it holstered, but part of me also feels like that at least brandishing the weapon would have been an option to protect this child.

I dont want to sound like one of those crazy people that the gun control people love to use in their arguments, pulling my firearm to perform whatever vigilante justice I deem necessary, but I feel like the safety of this little kid is also a big concern.

I'm just a little shaken up right now and its kinda eating at me I didnt do more to stop it earlier...

i would never use a firarm in that situation unless i saw somone go for a wepon. i would defintally pull the women away but there would be no need for a gun there. espically with 2 of you.

 

[ATF Consumer]

No, I'd say the best situation would be to use physical force against the woman to keep her from hitting her child. I wouldn't see any need to bring your handgun into that equation.

 

[dieselman]

ya im starting to agree... thats what my first gut instinct told me i should have just stuck with it.

second question: seeing as she was inside her car doing all this, would it be against any kind of law to open her car door and drag her away from the child?

 

[redneckmedic]

ya im starting to agree... thats what my first gut instinct told me i should have just stuck with it.

second question: seeing as she was inside her car doing all this, would it be against any kind of law to open her car door and drag her away from the child?

You mean unwanted physical contact? I believe that is called battery. Now if you throw out the "citizens arrest" before hand....

 

[dieselman]

You mean unwanted physical contact? I believe that is called battery. Now if you throw out the "citizens arrest" before hand....

thats exactly what i mean... so what do i do just yell citizens arrest?

 

[Ranger Rick]

What did IMPD say about the altercation and did they get contact info to follow up with you as they investigate?

 

[Armed-N-Ready]

You did the right thing.

Hopefully IMPD will follow up and child services will investigate and do what is necessary. I would never advise anyone to "brandish" a weapon. It has been drilled in to me that if you reach for a firearm the use of deadly force is justified or will be in short order. You can get yourself into trouble trying to scare someone by showing a firearm. Did you feel the life of the child was in danger? Two men should be able to pull a woman away from the situation of at least distract her from her attack on the child. A child abuse charge should get her attention.

 

[dieselman]

i was referencing when ATFconsumer said he believed that the best situation was to use physical force.

 

[dieselman]

the IMPD just took her license plate number, i dont recall them asking my buddy for any contact information though. we have decided to call again and file a formal report and make sure something gets done about it. i may just stop in at the IMPD headquarters when im down at the city county building on wednesday getting fingerprinted for my ltch.

 

[Big John]

Depends on who has more money and a better (dirtier) attorney. I would NOT use a firearm to gain control of the situation either way.

I am right there with you on wanting to stop this but I fear YOU would be the one thrown in jail with felony charges.

Dial 911 and stand by be a GOOD witness unless you truly fear for the child's life then intervene, it sucks when the right thing to do is the wrong thing to do.

Flame suit on I am sure I am going to get it for that post.

 

[EdC]

Your question makes me think. I try not to live my life around the fact that I carry, if that makes any sense. In other words, the first question for me in a situation like that is "What should I do," not "Should I use my gun?"

In the situation as you described it, I think injecting yourself into the situation as you did was appropriate. Good for you. Calling the cops and reporting it was good, also.

Drawing your handgun in that situation, as described? I believe that the fact you even asked the question shows you're still shaken up, like you said. No way, not even a close call whether or not to draw. Funny how adrenaline works. Witnessing something like that would shake me up pretty bad as well.

 

[kennys_67]

Be careful on a citizens arrest, you Must see the felony occur and then tell them citizens arrest and call the cops

 

[haldir]

YouTube - Citizens Arrest

 

[Suprtek]

Even if the child's life were in eminent danger, and the use of physical force was for some reason not an option, the use of a firearm in that situation would still be a last resort due to the close proximity of the child to the target. Distraction, containment and control would be my first priorities, in that order. I would be more willing to risk an assault charge against myself before putting a child in the line of fire. Just my two cents. It would likely be difficult for any of us to think rationally and clearly in a situation like that.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Good sense about following up...keep us informed...Its ashamed the child has been abused, hope she/he is not injured, but then again any abuse is uncalled for...

 

[bigiron]

thank you and good job in stopping this. i've also seen acts like this in public. heck, just go to walmart any day of the week and you'll see this crap. however, i agree, no guns on this one and we must ask ourselves, if it did escalate to deadly force, what is the impact on the child? i know, i know, this kid is getting beaten to the point of death maybe. but, i've lost my temper with my kids a time or too and probably gone too far(not hitting them in the face 30 times). if you pop the mom you are now a villan and you will be hung out to dry by the media even though you have done the right thing. as for your other question, opening the door, you could get shot. indiana law allows us the protection of the castle doctrine within our vehicle. she could shoot you right there and get away with it. such a very sad situation and almost anyway(other than the way you handled it) can go down wrong. sleep well!

 

[dieselman]

put a call in to child services.. gave them the story and license plate number of the car... going to file a police report tomorrow.

 

[GuyRelford]

First, I would say that introducing a firearm into this situation would have been a very bad idea. From your perspective, she is an unarmed woman and you had the ability to intervene without involving a firearm. ​

 

[jim b]

I am going to have to go in a little bit of a different direction than most of the posts here. In the situation you described i think the did exactly the right thing and brandishing a firearm would have only made the situation worse for everybody. Thank you for standing up for the innocent and not just standing by like most would have.

However, do not underestimate what this situation could have lead to. What if you would have approached the car and the woman did not stop? What if the child was showing obvious signs of injury, blood nose, cuts, unconcious, etc, and she continued to beat him? When does this cross the line from a beating to using deadly force? Remember, she does not have to brandish a gun for it to be considered deadly force, her hands were the weapon in this case and she obviously has physical superiority to a 4 year old.

Now, everybody says that two grown men should be able to physically handle a woman without a firearm and most of the time this is true. But, you do not know this woman and what she is capable of. Maybe she is highly trained in martial arts, hyped up on meth, or just 300 lbs and crazy while you are only 150lbs with a bum leg! What if her husband was coming out of the store behind her and you just didn't see him yet? This woman was obviously allready full of adrenaline and determination, where you? Never underestimate your opponent, especially just because they are a woman, just ask Tiger!

Remember when we decide to carry a gun the person that we may have to be forced to pull our gun on may not be another 200 lb male. Now, lets reverse your title to say "I saw this man beating the s*%t out of a child" and see if we have any different responses.

The main idea here is to protect the one who's life is in danger. In this instance it was the child and you did exactly right. However, do not let the situation change so that you become the one in danger.

Was a gun justified in this case? No, By no means what so ever. Is a gun ever justified in a case like this? Yes