Saw a "gun sense" booth today

[TwinTurbo]

I don't "live in a bubble". I simply don't hang with anti's. Just how do you propose I, and others like me, "branch out"? I, along with most others, are not going to change my/our lifestyle, in order to be around people I have no desire to be around in the first place. That's ridiculous. I've had people ask for my opinion about this or that gun. Or else ask what type or brand of gun I would purchase for what they want or need. I'm more than happy to help them make an informed decision. Or help them save a few bucks by steering them to the right place to buy. Or try one of my guns to see if they like it.

But I'm sure as hell not going to "expand my horizons" by going out of my way in order to play meet and greet with anti gunners. Any more than a church group is going to go to the local strip joint, to try and convert topless dancers into born again Christians. People like to assimilate with their own kind. It's human nature. And I'm not going against it to try to convert someone who wants no part of what I'm selling to begin with. That's about as productive a use of time as hitting yourself on the head with a hammer, because it feels good when you stop.

Although I can't tell you how to make friends, billt, I will try to offer some suggestions. First, you can stop trying to pigeonhole people into tidy, convenient groups of gun-hating liberals or pro-gun conservatives. While there are many people that fit nicely into your beloved two groups, there are also many, MANY people that do not.

Second, you could try to be a little more humble and reduce the brash, shove-it-down-your-throat-and-if-you-don't-like-it-then-****-you-because-I-know-better-than-you-even-though-I-live-in-a-bubble attitude that you display on the forum. I suspect you will have the most difficulties with this piece, even though I suspect it's the root cause of your inability to associate with people that do not share your exact point of view.

The guy I was with did not conveniently fit into your two groups. Nobody is asking you to change your lifestyle or go hang out in the ghettos of Chicago. There are tons of people that you could reach out to and educate! However, most people don't like to be preached to in a condescending manor.

 

[billt]

All it says is that self-defense is a primary reason women become gun owners.

Ya' think? Now, why would someone, women in this case, who have decided to purchase a firearm for self defense, need to be "converted" into thinking they need something they've already decided to buy?

 

[billt]

I'll tell you what Jet Girl. From now on I'll play your silly little game. I promise to only insult you by making smart ass comments about you to third party posters. That way they aren't aimed at you, but you can read them. Then when you reply to me directly, I'll jump on your ass, and tell you to take it to PM's if you want to be nasty. Fair enough little girl?

 

[Fletch]

Ya' think? Now, why would someone, women in this case, who have decided to purchase a firearm for self defense, need to be "converted" into thinking they need something they've already decided to buy?

You're putting the cart before the horse. What led to the decision to purchase? Decisions are not a priori... they happen in a context as a result of a mental process. You cannot pretend (well, you can, but then you're just sticking your fingers in your ears) that they appear out of the blue with no reason for being.

 

[jamil]

Here is yet another factor to be considered. In the 50 years I've been a gun owner, I've found most gun owners, again most, not all (get that part Jet Girl?), tend to keep to themselves and their own kind. They socialize at their local gun club or shop. Or else with hunting and shooting buddies. They don't hang around anti gun people. I don't, and never have. I know dozens personally who are just like me. I'll be retiring in 6 months, and that situation is going to expand. Because I won't be around over 400 co workers any more.

Who the hell are we supposed to convert? We're already preaching to the choir. I don't hang with anti's period. If I find a person is anti gun, I don't want anything to do with them. I don't need or want to know any more. We have nothing in common. Before I met my wife, I had many dates end by 8:30 because the subject of guns came up. When I met her, and we ended up back at my place, I showed her my collection. Her first reply was, "When are we going to go out and shoot these things!" Bingo. We were married 2 months later, and have been for the last 30 years.

There is little to no opportunity for most die hard gun owners to "engage" anti's in showing them the error of their ways. What the hell are most of us supposed to do, attend a Handgun Control convention? Most anti's are the same way. Yeah, sure, if you've got some huge family your paths may cross with a few anti's from time to time. But for the most part, pro gun and anti gun people lead separate lives. They just do. That's the way it is.

Well first, if you only hang out with like minded people, how could you possibly know? You've only ever experienced that unique set of people who think just like you. You know, the world is full of diverse opinions. You're discovering that even on INGO.

But it's probably best for everyone that you tend to stick with your own. You might find yourself pasted all over MSNBC as their strawman of the day.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

I'll tell you what Jet Girl. From now on I'll play your silly little game. I promise to only insult you by making smart ass comments about you to third party posters. That way they aren't aimed at you, but you can read them. Then when you reply to me directly, I'll jump on your ass, and tell you to take it to PM's if you want to be nasty. Fair enough little girl?

Ah, so you're the author of 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'. I thought you sounded familiar.

 

[Smokepole]

And they're becoming gun owners because they are jumping into the world of concealed carry, that wasn't available to them just a few years ago. Not because they were miraculously "converted" by some silver tonged pro gunner.

Well, that only PARTIALLY answers the LTCH part of the equation, but has absolutely nothing to do with the increase in women hunters. And I have met several women who years ago wouldn't have considered holding a gun much less shooting one that gave in and went to the range with a friend (male or female) and ended up having a good time. Then months or a few years later buy a gun and maybe get the LTCH. You don't get to have just your facts. There are other factors at play, not the least of which are those that are willing to engage the uninformed and drop a few seeds here and there. I'm not condemning you for staying in your box. Lots of people do. Most in fact. To each his own. What I am taking issue with is your thinking that the anti's all live in the same box that you do and refuse to open their eyes and minds. Facts and experience don't bear this out. It is rarely ever an immediate light bulb moment. It takes time. And fortunately not everybody ascribes to the same myopic point of view that you do. If they did we would likely not be where we are today with every state having some form of LTCH. How the He!! do you think the "world of concealed carry" as you called it, came to be in the first place? It sure wasn't by all of the pro-gun conservatives staying in their little box.

 

[Fletch]

How the He!! do you think the "world of concealed carry" as you called it, came to be in the first place? It sure wasn't by all of the pro-gun conservatives staying in their little box.

I can't speak for all states, but I'm here to bear witness that the "stickin' to my box" types were more hindrance than help in Michigan, and far more damaging to the cause than the opposition.

 

[Smokepole]

Oh, well, in that case I'm just going to go hang out with my own like-minded friends: guys that wear speedos to the pool and/or beach when they probably shouldn't.

WOW! Didnt' need that picture! And I CERTAINLY wouldn't help it much either.

 

[bwframe]

Maybe we can discuss the subject now instead of just what Bill wants to talk about?

 

[jamil]

I can't speak for all states, but I'm here to bear witness that the "stickin' to my box" types were more hindrance than help in Michigan, and far more damaging to the cause than the opposition.

Michigan? Ce qui est cet endroit?

 

[Fletch]

Michigan? Ce qui est cet endroit?

It's Indiana's Canada.

 

[jamil]

It's Indiana's Canada.

I grew up in Michigan. Fond memories. I left during the mass exodus to Texas. The slogan was, "will the last person out of Michigan please turn off the lights".

 

[JetGirl]

Maybe we can discuss the subject now instead of just what Bill wants to talk about?

That right there is teh funneh.

 

[philo]

Thanks mods for giving Billt a vacation. I've been avoiding my own thread because my blood pressure didn't need the hit. Sorry it devolved into that - I didn't know how to stop it. Probably couldn't be done ex by mods.

 

[Smokepole]

ModernGunner nailed it. I've found through the years, that if a person or politician is anti gun, there is little more I need to know about him or her. Because pretty much everything else involving his or her liberal communist thinking is written in stone. That's just the way it is with liberals.

If that's how things are then there is no reason whatsoever for there to have been any progress to get all of the states to have passed LTCH type laws. Or for there to have been successful recall votes in Colo.

What the hell difference does it make where I've been? You have no RESULTS to back up a thing you are claiming. If it were in fact true, the anti gun movement would be no threat today. Pro gun organizations have been, "getting the word out" for decades. You may have more people interested in guns today. But it isn't because they were "converted". Most have simply discovered enjoyment in gun ownership on their own, and decided to pursue it. Or decided to purchase a gun for personal protection, due to the many concealed carry laws now in place in most all states, that didn't exist 20 years ago. Again, back to the Jehovah's Witnesses. If I, like most people, want religion, I don't need or want someone knocking on my door to sell it to me. I'll have no trouble finding a church that will take my money. It's the same with owning a firearm, and or believing in the constitutional right to that ownership.

The bulk of the people the NRA gets to join are interested in guns already. They want to join a powerful political organization in order to keep them. Most all NRA members owned guns BEFORE they joined. Just like AMA members owned a motorcycle before they did the same. Your pro gun passion is admirable. But it's not going to convert die hard socialists, or free loading uneducated minorities, IN ANY NUMBERS, to matter in the least. Socialists are socialists. And gun ownership doesn't fit in to their thinking. If you change the mind of a few fence sitters, that isn't going to swing the Democratic Party who's numbers are improving every day.

Back tp your post at the top, if all of the anti's conceptions are "carved in stone", then why have enough of them changed their minds about guns to get LTCH laws (to varying degrees) in all 50 states. I'm 52 and when I was a kid there were only 7 states with LTCH style laws. The change hasn't happened over the last 12-14 years. It has happened over the last 25 or so. And it couldn't have happened without the work of people like Fletch and pro-gunners in general working to change the perceptions of a certain percentage of anti-gunners. Some of whom were staunch antis. Gary Kleck was a solid anti gunner out to prove that guns laws reduced crime when he performed and compiled his study and the results converted him.



I disagree. I see the Dems losing ground. Would you like to provide a link to your data in support of you statement?

I have a couple for you : http://guardianlv.com/2014/04/democrats-losing-ground-according-to-new-poll/

Here: Florida?s Voter Registration: Where Democrats Are Losing. | The Political Hurricane - Florida Political Blog.

Here: http://www.varight.com/news/democrats-losing-party-members-rapidly-according-to-poll/

And here: Study: Democrats Losing Support of Poor Whites - ABC News

There's plenty more just search the web.

Why Female Gun Ownership is Up 77% Since 2005 - Celia Bigelow - Page full

Nowhere does it mention women buying guns because they've been "converted" from an anti gun posture. To quote the article:

"Women--including myself--have a different reason: It’s self-defense, stupid."

Sounds pretty clear to me.

I read the piece and what I came away with was the NSSF says that gun store owners have seen an influx of women that are buying guns for self-defense. An author who presumes to speak for ALL women. And a bunch of statistics about the drop in crime rates over the last 20 years. NOTHING about WHY the women changed their minds. and opinions on the ownership of guns. Or to be fair, how many fit your or the author's description. But I would still refer back to your quote at the top of this post. There is absolutely nothing in the piece relating to a poll, survey or anything that addresses the motivation of the ladies other than the author's reason. Merely an assumption on her part.

 

[Smokepole]

Oh mannnnn! Did billt get a timeout? I just got back.

 

[actaeon277]

And another shooter is made

 

[hornadylnl]

Wow, I just read all of this.

Unfortunately I used to be much more like bill than fletch. Fletch and others pointed out the hypocrisy of many of my views and won me over to the dark side.

 

[jamil]

You guys are wearing on me. I took that quiz again and now I'm 97% libertarian.