RSOs view of the world.. Training or the lack of it :)

[NHT3]

Three and a half hours in the range yesterday and at least 90% of the shooters had NO business with a loaded firearm in their hands. The usual young guys that came in to shoot the SCAR 17 that had problems loading it. Another guy that got highly irritated with me because I questioned his decision to remove the red dot from his AR pistol and just use the rail for sighting. Watch your 6 and be safe out there people. Most people carrying a gun are nothing short of a danger to themselves and everyone within range.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]

 

[devildog70]

It is not actually sighting the gun. Just a reference as to when I am coming to point. With my eyesight this is actually easier for me than force focus on the site blade.
If I am using the sites punishing some steel once I get them up and in focus it is fine. But man size self defense The other method is faster for me. And I have proven it to work.

Yes as long as the 1911 I just never trained that way.

Instinctive point shooting has to be practiced. Looking down the top of the slide is as effective. But like I said, force focus on the sight blade takes a moment.

You will not bulls-eye shoot this way either.

If it's "instinctive," why would it need to be practiced?

 

[MCgrease08]

If it's "instinctive," why would it need to be practiced?

A cave man may instictively understand he can fight off a saber tooth tiger with a sharpened stick, that doesn't mean he can't get better and more effective at it by practicing.

Newborn babies instictively hold their breath when dropped underwater and instictively rise to the surface and float on their back. That doesn't mean they know how to swim.

 

[devildog70]

A cave man may instictively understand he can fight off a saber tooth tiger with a sharpened stick, that doesn't mean he can't get better and more effective at it by practicing.

Newborn babies instictively hold their breath when dropped underwater and instictively rise to the surface and float on their back. That doesn't mean they know how to swim.

Words mean things. That's my issue. I doubt a cave man instinctively knew he could fight off a saber tooth tiger, let alone with a sharpened stick. Your baby analogy is closer, but unless people said a baby can instinctively swim, it really doesn't apply. Fans of instinctive shooting invariably say it is an effective means of engaging targets, for a whole host of reasons....instinctively. If something is instinctive, it implies no practice is needed. Pedantic? Sure, but like I said, words mean things.

 

[churchmouse]

A cave man may instictively understand he can fight off a saber tooth tiger with a sharpened stick, that doesn't mean he can't get better and more effective at it by practicing.

Newborn babies instictively hold their breath when dropped underwater and instictively rise to the surface and float on their back. That doesn't mean they know how to swim.

Bingo. Why would this need to be asked.
I did this at the range this morning with another Ingo member and he did so as well. Yes you practice. With practice comes improvement. Muscle memory etc.
Last round of the session I picked the gun up brought to bear no sites and banged a 12" steel at 30 feet. Can I do that every time......Of course not but we dont hit the steel every time with sites either.

Man I am truly sorry I even mentioned this. Just try it. Safely please. Or just dont. Safely please.

 

[devildog70]

Very long article that covers it pretty thoroughly:

https://www.buildingshooters.com/articles/kinesthetic-shooting-killing-a-false-god
https://www.buildingshooters.com/articles/killing-a-false-god-part-2

 

[churchmouse]

Words mean things. That's my issue. I doubt a cave man instinctively knew he could fight off a saber tooth tiger, let alone with a sharpened stick. Your baby analogy is closer, but unless people said a baby can instinctively swim, it really doesn't apply. Fans of instinctive shooting invariably say it is an effective means of engaging targets, for a whole host of reasons....instinctively. If something is instinctive, it implies no practice is needed. Pedantic? Sure, but like I said, words mean things.

Nit pick nit pick. Carry on. Enjoy your day. I see and agree but man,

 

[devildog70]

Bingo. Why would this need to be asked.
I did this at the range this morning with another Ingo member and he did so as well. Yes you practice. With practice comes improvement. Muscle memory etc.
Last round of the session I picked the gun up brought to bear no sites and banged a 12" steel at 30 feet. Can I do that every time......Of course not but we dont hit the steel every time with sites either.

Man I am truly sorry I even mentioned this. Just try it. Safely please. Or just dont. Safely please.

I'm familiar with point shooting/Quick Kill/etc. I just have an issue with terming something "instinctive" (which is a marketing phrase to imply that the method is a short-cut, and comes naturally, or without practice), which clearly isn't. That​ was my only issue.

 

[churchmouse]

I'm familiar with point shooting/Quick Kill/etc. I just have an issue with terming something "instinctive" (which is a marketing phrase to imply that the method is a short-cut, and comes naturally, or without practice), which clearly isn't. That​ was my only issue.

OK. Lets think about this for just a moment.

I may have used a word here that was not the correct choice and it seems to have disrupted your morning and for this I am sorry. I trust no safe space will be needed. We are all grown men in here. I hope.

Lets say it has become instinctive after years and years of doing it. How's that.....

 

[Trapper Jim]

Humility can be the biggest defense against learning.

 

[devildog70]

OK. Lets think about this for just a moment.

I may have used a word here that was not the correct choice and it seems to have disrupted your morning and for this I am sorry. I trust no safe space will be needed. We are all grown men in here. I hope.

Lets say it has become instinctive after years and years of doing it. How's that.....

No safe space needed, at all. And I also understand that tone is hard to get across via the written word. It's a pet peeve of mine - I did a lot of pushups back in the day, as a young instructor, for misuse of terminology. It may have scarred me.

 

[churchmouse]

No safe space needed, at all. And I also understand that tone is hard to get across via the written word. It's a pet peeve of mine - I did a lot of pushups back in the day, as a young instructor, for misuse of terminology. It may have scarred me.

All good brother. All good.

I get a lot of feedback on this topic. And yes, initially one could say the terminology was incorrect "But"...........Instinct is learned somewhere along lifes path. Some we are born with. Others we learn. And once learned become instinct or they are instinctively used with out much if any real thought. That is just how I see it anyway. Is muscle memory instinctive...??? Interesting discussion I suppose.

 

[devildog70]

All good brother. All good.

I get a lot of feedback on this topic. And yes, initially one could say the terminology was incorrect "But"...........Instinct is learned somewhere along lifes path. Some we are born with. Others we learn. And once learned become instinct or they are instinctively used with out much if any real thought. That is just how I see it anyway. Is muscle memory instinctive...??? Interesting discussion I suppose.

Instinct is something you are born with. Myelination, or "muscle memory" (sorry, another pet peeve. LOL) is gained through repetition. Since point shooting relies on the myelination of having done a similar activity (pointing) countless times, from a young age, I don't think it can ever be deemed truly "instinctive." But "Myelinated Shooting" doesn't roll off the tongue like "Instinctive Shooting."

Don't even get me started on the abortion that is gross vs fine motor skills, as parroted by the shooting community. LOL

 

[rosejm]

Ok, the third party here says:

Grammar, Pedantry and other discussions of language can be discussed at the local library.




NOW, let's get back to the pictures/anecdotes of range stupidity!

Not mine (stolen from reddit), but trying to put this train back onto the tracks...

I work at a range, and am generally the person who gives brief pistol introductions to new shooters. The first part happens in the lobby and includes general safety, then covers grip, stance, and sight picture. Then we go out on the range and I show them how to load a magazine, manipulate the slide, etc.

So, not too long ago, I was giving this basic instruction to two ladies who were pretty new to shooting. Their friend arrived about 30 seconds into my talk, and they asked her to come join. She responds with a huffy "oh no, I don't need that", which to me is a small red flag right off the bat (arrogance and shooting don't do well together IMO).

So fast forward to range time. I've instructed the two ladies who asked for some help, they're doing well, so I continue on supervising the other lanes. Shortly after, I get called over to the lane (by one of the ladies who I was helping, but friends with the arrogant one) to fix a malfunction.
It turns out the lady who knew everything already had loaded her mag with the rounds in backwards... then tried to force the slide closed on a backwards round, wedging it very snugly in the chamber.

I leave to get some pliers to get the round out, and upon return find her trying to bash the round out through the barrel with a cleaning rod. To clarify - she's bashing on the primer end of the round, with the bullet pointed towards her stomach.

 

[Trapper Jim]

He who won’t take the test usually knows what others will find out.

 

[dudley0]

I try to always listen to someone giving instructions. Lets me know what they are about. Have watched people 'teach' some pretty odd things in my time. But I have learned from all of them, even if I learned that they don't know anything.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Went to PB recently. OP wasn't RO'ing when I was there.

Still no pics of my backside on INGO. :-(

 

[MarkC]

I try to always listen to someone giving instructions. Lets me know what they are about. Have watched people 'teach' some pretty odd things in my time. But I have learned from all of them, even if I learned that they don't know anything.

Sometimes the best lesson you can take away from another's "teaching" is NOT to do it their way!

 

[XDragon117X]

I was at PB last weekend, guy and his gf came in and set up in the stall next to mine. Using a Glock chambered in 45, full frame. Mag or two later he asks the RSO for a band-aid, slide bite on left thumb. She almost did it too before I stepped in finally

 

[JollyMon]

And at PB a few days ago.... heard a fellow customer explaining to his buddy that his sights were off... shooting low and to the left.