Rock River and Springfield Armory sold out our neighbors in Illinois.

[churchmouse]

I travel for a living. One of the perks is to stop in at a LGS and see what is in the used rack. I feel sorry for all you guys stuck in your narrow minded thinking about "communist States" etc... Illinois has as many active competitive shooters and ranges as any other state.

Gunowners in Illinois are no different than any other state. They are just outnumbered right now.

I am in Iowa at this moment and I am leaning toward buying a used Anschutz 54 prone rifle that I saw in a LGS today. It is from an estate sale. If I buy it, it will have found a good home. It will never show up anywhere else.

Judgementalism is running rampant around here...

I do not see any one being judgmental. We are all responding to a swift kick in the jewels.
These 2 company's were covert in what they did and now are scrambling to spin the facts into their favor. Instead of standing before the masses with an explination they are playing Democrat politics.
That you do not see this is confusing.

I have been on the Springfield band wagon got years. Own/built up/put many in the platform through influence. I feel betrayed inn some off beat manor. How is this being judgmental.

 

[churchmouse]

Ran across this today as well.

[video=youtube;ioM5NZ-fwtI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioM5NZ-fwtI[/video]

OK....what am I missing about Buds gun shop.

 

[Expat]

OK....what am I missing about Buds gun shop.

I wondered the same thing as this was the first I had heard of an issue. I did some searching but only found some complaining about them not wanting to ship guns to Maryland due to the complicated laws there. I can't hold that against them. Maybe they were charing too much for .22 ammo during the shortage...

 

[churchmouse]

I wondered the same thing as this was the first I had heard of an issue. I did some searching but only found some complaining about them not wanting to ship guns to Maryland due to the complicated laws there. I can't hold that against them. Maybe they were charing too much for .22 ammo during the shortage...

I never buy a gun I can not 1st fondle. So on line is not in my process. Ammo yes. Parts yes. Guns......NFW.

I was just curious. CTD is on my no way list.

 

[GIJEW]

Just got an email from SA urging me to stand against this bill:

The 2nd Amendment urgently needs your help in Illinois!

The Illinois House of Representatives may consider Senate Bill 1657, legislation that could put state gun dealers out of business, at any time!​

​

It is imperative you share this with friends and family living in Illinois and strongly urge them to OPPOSE SB 1657!

​

SB 1657 would create onerous mandatory regulations, fees potentially in the thousands of dollars and excessive amounts of red tape that would almost assuredly force the closure of many firearm dealers, and prevent prospective owners from opening new ones. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) already licenses and closely monitors all federally licensed firearm dealers (FFLs) and strictly enforces any violation of federal law.

SB 1657 goes far beyond federal law and is designed to shut down as many FFLs as possible.​

Again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact your state Representative and urge them to strongly oppose SB 1657! Stay tuned towww.nraila.org for further updates on this bill.

​

​

I got this email also. SA obviously got the message that, for the gun owning public, the 2A isn't a saleable commodity. I just don't understand why they needed to be told in the first place. Maybe SA's CEO and lobbyist aren't "gun people" (like S&W's previous british owners)?

 

[Spear Dane]

I travel for a living. One of the perks is to stop in at a LGS and see what is in the used rack. I feel sorry for all you guys stuck in your narrow minded thinking about "communist States" etc... Illinois has as many active competitive shooters and ranges as any other state.

Gunowners in Illinois are no different than any other state. They are just outnumbered right now.

I am in Iowa at this moment and I am leaning toward buying a used Anschutz 54 prone rifle that I saw in a LGS today. It is from an estate sale. If I buy it, it will have found a good home. It will never show up anywhere else.

Judgementalism is running rampant around here...

You had maybe ought to take a minute to fully understand the situation because if this passes that nifty LGS you like to stop at may very well go POOF in rapid fashion. There is NO WAY that SA and RRA did not screw the pooch here. Either they knew what they were doing or they were both damn near criminally negligent in their lack of oversight.

 

[2A_Tom]

Heading over to youtube to see if NRA has taken a position of still silent.

 

[OZZY.40]

You had maybe ought to take a minute to fully understand the situation because if this passes that nifty LGS you like to stop at may very well go POOF in rapid fashion. There is NO WAY that SA and RRA did not screw the pooch here. Either they knew what they were doing or they were both damn near criminally negligent in their lack of oversight.

Agree, no new legislation will improve gun owners' rights except repealing the laws that infringe upon them.

 

[MRockwell]

So this is what I received in an e-mail today, from [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]teamspringfield@springfield-armory.com :



Dear M,[/FONT]
​

The 2nd Amendment urgently needs your help in Illinois!​

The Illinois House of Representatives may consider Senate Bill 1657, legislation that could put state gun dealers out of business, at any time!​

[h=2]It is imperative you share this with friends and family living in Illinois and strongly urge them to OPPOSE SB 1657!
[/h]

​

SB 1657 would create onerous mandatory regulations, fees potentially in the thousands of dollars and excessive amounts of red tape that would almost assuredly force the closure of many firearm dealers, and prevent prospective owners from opening new ones. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) already licenses and closely monitors all federally licensed firearm dealers (FFLs) and strictly enforces any violation of federal law.

SB 1657 goes far beyond federal law and is designed to shut down as many FFLs as possible.
​

Again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact your state Representative and urge them to strongly oppose SB 1657! Stay tuned to www.nraila.org for further updates on this bill.


This was my reply,(no. I'm not a wordsmith):
​

Really Springfield? REALLY!?!?
I am an every day carrier of an XD45. It fits me, it works.
Yet your blatant disregard for the Second Amendment rights of every American citizen is appalling!

You have sided with the gun-grabbers in Illinois to save your ass. It takes very little research to find out that you and Rock River are in bed with the Illinois reps that want to take away rights from honest, law-abiding citizens.


I have decided I will no longer support Springfield Armory. My next purchase will be from a company that supports the rights of American Citizens. You are not that company! Stop putting your bottom line ahead of your core! Your core is the honest, hard-working Americans that believe in Liberty! From your actions, you have shown that you no longer believe in Freedom.



It is too late to back-pedal. It is too late to save face. What is done, cannot be undone. You made your bed.

 

[churchmouse]

So this is what I received in an e-mail today, from [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]teamspringfield@springfield-armory.com :



Dear M,[/FONT]
​

The 2nd Amendment urgently needs your help in Illinois!​

The Illinois House of Representatives may consider Senate Bill 1657, legislation that could put state gun dealers out of business, at any time!​

[h=2]It is imperative you share this with friends and family living in Illinois and strongly urge them to OPPOSE SB 1657!
[/h]

​

SB 1657 would create onerous mandatory regulations, fees potentially in the thousands of dollars and excessive amounts of red tape that would almost assuredly force the closure of many firearm dealers, and prevent prospective owners from opening new ones. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) already licenses and closely monitors all federally licensed firearm dealers (FFLs) and strictly enforces any violation of federal law.

SB 1657 goes far beyond federal law and is designed to shut down as many FFLs as possible.
​

Again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact your state Representative and urge them to strongly oppose SB 1657! Stay tuned to www.nraila.org for further updates on this bill.


This was my reply,(no. I'm not a wordsmith):
​

Really Springfield? REALLY!?!?
I am an every day carrier of an XD45. It fits me, it works.
Yet your blatant disregard for the Second Amendment rights of every American citizen is appalling!

You have sided with the gun-grabbers in Illinois to save your ass. It takes very little research to find out that you and Rock River are in bed with the Illinois reps that want to take away rights from honest, law-abiding citizens.


I have decided I will no longer support Springfield Armory. My next purchase will be from a company that supports the rights of American Citizens. You are not that company! Stop putting your bottom line ahead of your core! Your core is the honest, hard-working Americans that believe in Liberty! From your actions, you have shown that you no longer believe in Freedom.



It is too late to back-pedal. It is too late to save face. What is done, cannot be undone. You made your bed.

This response is so much more civil than mine was.

 

[MRockwell]

This response is so much more civil than mine was.

Yeah, being a bidness owner and dealing with customers has pushed me into having a lot of PC responses.
It kinda sux at times.LOL

 

[churchmouse]

Yeah, being a bidness owner and dealing with customers has pushed me into having a lot of PC responses.
It kinda sux at times.LOL

I actually got to respond outside the decorum required to be a moderator.
It did feel kind of good.

 

[AngryRooster]

I wish I would get one of those emails to respond to. Haven't yet, doubt I will. They probably purged my email address after the recall. Half way through that pooch screw I told them I either wanted my gun back ASAP or a refund, either way I would be making a complaint with the BBB. Every email I got after that had a different tone to it, like someone else was writing it much more carefully. They were all CC'd to their legal department from that point forward as well.

 

[2A_Tom]

I got one, probably because I emailed them about this first.

 

[actaeon277]

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I've already deleted them but I think I've gotten at least 2 emails over the last couple of days from SA trying to rally support to defeat that bill in IL. A day late and a dollar short. I guess they're banking on gun owners that have been under a rock the last week swallowing their new found resentment of the special treatment they'd carved out for themselves.

 

[TheDude]

Here's a well received and thought out statement by a mod on Arfcom.


The other day I wrote something which I did not make public, regarding the issue facing our Illinois brothers in arms. It was still early in this situation and it basically discussed what we knew at the time. Because it was missing information, and we had not spoken with Rock River Arms (RRA) yet, I did not feel it needed to go public and held back on releasing it. There's no real point to utilize it now, but I wanted folks to have a single thread that covered everything to date, so I figured a new thread was the best approach. All of the items below have been proven fact, nothing is rumor, and I had to speak to a number of folks to ensure accuracy. (There is only one item which could not be proven and is mentioned as such below.)


RRA and Springfield Armory (SA) have been fighting for firearm owner's rights since 2001's push to ban "assault weapons" from the state of Illinois. In 2009 they formed the Illinois Firearm Manufacturers Association (IFMA) and setup rules on how parties could join and what their contributions should be. They hired a lobbyist and went to work. As they were the only two manufacturers to utilize the IFMA, their names are on the documents readily available through the IRS website. (Historic proof available to everyone here.) Since that date the lobbyist, Mr Jay Keller was brought on board. The key piece of information to keep in mind is that Mr Keller was a well regarded lobbyist, but he was not specifically a firearm lobbyist. As such, he was not aware of the historic failings of company in our community and was driven by getting results. The biggest weapon in his arsenal was that he could reach out to Democrat legislators and impact things in ways other lobbyists in the state could not. These two facts are critical to everything which then transpired this year and led us to today.

In a March meeting over SB-1657, a bill with wide impact to Illinois gun owners, Keller stated that if manufacturers (all manufacturers in the state) were given an exemption, the IFMA would go silent at the vote. This was something other lobby groups also did for their respective representation. In short, a number of exemptions were granted and can be seen in the notes from an earlier session. (Available here.) So manufacturers, not just RRA and SA, would be given an exemption, but so would others like brick and mortar stores, police departments, small dealers, folks selling their guns, and so forth. When the vote came on April 27th, the first day of NRA Show, the IFMA took no positions. (Can be seen here.) The bill passed the vote and chaos errupted for everyone involved. (Vote information can be seen here.)

As the community got wind of this, it began to spread and RRA/SA were approached at the NRA show. After speaking with RRA we came to find out that they were not involved with their lobbyist, so this all was a surprise. It was a position they were not accepting of and have since left the IFMA they created and have begun to work with other firearm lobbyists in the state. Regardless of this, the damage has been done and now the fight moves to the next vote. If it passes that, then it go to the Governor's desk where it will have one more chance to be rejected. (You can find the bill status here and the full bill here.)

At this time the focus by the NRA, firearm owners, firearm companies, and others is to defeat this bill from progressing. The lobbyists I spoke to in the state have mentioned that RRA is fighting beside them, which they need.

In my efforts, I also took the time to speak with a couple companies who were gracious enough to walk me through their relationship with lobbyists. For the most part, they hire them and expect them to represent the interests of the company and the firearm community without much assistance. They are not micromanaged and often times go months without contact. There are obvious interactions when critical bills are introduced which need their attention, along with times when they are asked to be more hands on. So for RRA and SA to have relied on their lobbyist to work with freedom was not unusual.

I also spent time speaking to a number of lobbyists, across different states, in regards to donations to speak to representatives. In the case of IFMA, there were donations made to anti gun politicians, which folks have questioned. From what I was able to learn, it is commonplace to have to "pay" for your voice to be heard. Most often it's in smaller amounts, but I did hear that the amounts "required" can be quite staggering. Understand that this is JUST to be able to discuss their lobby's position and try to convince them of how their vote could impact business and communities in the state. Since I did not speak with Keller, I can not say this is what happened with IFMA's donations, but I find it extremely likely that the donations in question were for this exact purpose. Knowing his strength was in reaching across the aisle, it makes even more sense that he would do everything in his power to try to help fight anti gun laws by trying to sway a few extra votes.


With all of this said, I do not believe in the boycotting of any firearm company, as burning one of our own to the ground harms us more than helps. I do, however, feel you should vote with your wallet, which is the loudest voice we have as a group. You are welcome to discuss this matter in this thread and either continue to support these companies or look elsewhere. ARFCOM has decided that ignorance is not a valid excuse and that fault still lies with these companies for not staying on top of such critical legislation. Because of this, we have terminated our relationship with RRA, but are allowing their forum to remain here for them to have a means to communicate with the community. They will only be here to discuss fighting this legislation as they continue forward. Please understand that they are not hiding from the fact that they are at fault by putting too much faith in Keller.


I will ask that folks do not turn to harassing RRA in their forum or on the site and that conversations be kept in appropriate discussions. If I forgot anything, or mistyped something, please correct me. It has been a long couple of days.

 

[churchmouse]

Here's a well received and thought out statement by a mod on Arfcom.


The other day I wrote something which I did not make public, regarding the issue facing our Illinois brothers in arms. It was still early in this situation and it basically discussed what we knew at the time. Because it was missing information, and we had not spoken with Rock River Arms (RRA) yet, I did not feel it needed to go public and held back on releasing it. There's no real point to utilize it now, but I wanted folks to have a single thread that covered everything to date, so I figured a new thread was the best approach. All of the items below have been proven fact, nothing is rumor, and I had to speak to a number of folks to ensure accuracy. (There is only one item which could not be proven and is mentioned as such below.)


RRA and Springfield Armory (SA) have been fighting for firearm owner's rights since 2001's push to ban "assault weapons" from the state of Illinois. In 2009 they formed the Illinois Firearm Manufacturers Association (IFMA) and setup rules on how parties could join and what their contributions should be. They hired a lobbyist and went to work. As they were the only two manufacturers to utilize the IFMA, their names are on the documents readily available through the IRS website. (Historic proof available to everyone here.) Since that date the lobbyist, Mr Jay Keller was brought on board. The key piece of information to keep in mind is that Mr Keller was a well regarded lobbyist, but he was not specifically a firearm lobbyist. As such, he was not aware of the historic failings of company in our community and was driven by getting results. The biggest weapon in his arsenal was that he could reach out to Democrat legislators and impact things in ways other lobbyists in the state could not. These two facts are critical to everything which then transpired this year and led us to today.

In a March meeting over SB-1657, a bill with wide impact to Illinois gun owners, Keller stated that if manufacturers (all manufacturers in the state) were given an exemption, the IFMA would go silent at the vote. This was something other lobby groups also did for their respective representation. In short, a number of exemptions were granted and can be seen in the notes from an earlier session. (Available here.) So manufacturers, not just RRA and SA, would be given an exemption, but so would others like brick and mortar stores, police departments, small dealers, folks selling their guns, and so forth. When the vote came on April 27th, the first day of NRA Show, the IFMA took no positions. (Can be seen here.) The bill passed the vote and chaos errupted for everyone involved. (Vote information can be seen here.)

As the community got wind of this, it began to spread and RRA/SA were approached at the NRA show. After speaking with RRA we came to find out that they were not involved with their lobbyist, so this all was a surprise. It was a position they were not accepting of and have since left the IFMA they created and have begun to work with other firearm lobbyists in the state. Regardless of this, the damage has been done and now the fight moves to the next vote. If it passes that, then it go to the Governor's desk where it will have one more chance to be rejected. (You can find the bill status here and the full bill here.)

At this time the focus by the NRA, firearm owners, firearm companies, and others is to defeat this bill from progressing. The lobbyists I spoke to in the state have mentioned that RRA is fighting beside them, which they need.

In my efforts, I also took the time to speak with a couple companies who were gracious enough to walk me through their relationship with lobbyists. For the most part, they hire them and expect them to represent the interests of the company and the firearm community without much assistance. They are not micromanaged and often times go months without contact. There are obvious interactions when critical bills are introduced which need their attention, along with times when they are asked to be more hands on. So for RRA and SA to have relied on their lobbyist to work with freedom was not unusual.

I also spent time speaking to a number of lobbyists, across different states, in regards to donations to speak to representatives. In the case of IFMA, there were donations made to anti gun politicians, which folks have questioned. From what I was able to learn, it is commonplace to have to "pay" for your voice to be heard. Most often it's in smaller amounts, but I did hear that the amounts "required" can be quite staggering. Understand that this is JUST to be able to discuss their lobby's position and try to convince them of how their vote could impact business and communities in the state. Since I did not speak with Keller, I can not say this is what happened with IFMA's donations, but I find it extremely likely that the donations in question were for this exact purpose. Knowing his strength was in reaching across the aisle, it makes even more sense that he would do everything in his power to try to help fight anti gun laws by trying to sway a few extra votes.


With all of this said, I do not believe in the boycotting of any firearm company, as burning one of our own to the ground harms us more than helps. I do, however, feel you should vote with your wallet, which is the loudest voice we have as a group. You are welcome to discuss this matter in this thread and either continue to support these companies or look elsewhere. ARFCOM has decided that ignorance is not a valid excuse and that fault still lies with these companies for not staying on top of such critical legislation. Because of this, we have terminated our relationship with RRA, but are allowing their forum to remain here for them to have a means to communicate with the community. They will only be here to discuss fighting this legislation as they continue forward. Please understand that they are not hiding from the fact that they are at fault by putting too much faith in Keller.


I will ask that folks do not turn to harassing RRA in their forum or on the site and that conversations be kept in appropriate discussions. If I forgot anything, or mistyped something, please correct me. It has been a long couple of days.

Interesting.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Here's a well received and thought out statement by a mod on Arfcom.


The other day I wrote something which I did not make public, regarding the issue facing our Illinois brothers in arms. It was still early in this situation and it basically discussed what we knew at the time. Because it was missing information, and we had not spoken with Rock River Arms (RRA) yet, I did not feel it needed to go public and held back on releasing it. There's no real point to utilize it now, but I wanted folks to have a single thread that covered everything to date, so I figured a new thread was the best approach. All of the items below have been proven fact, nothing is rumor, and I had to speak to a number of folks to ensure accuracy. (There is only one item which could not be proven and is mentioned as such below.)


RRA and Springfield Armory (SA) have been fighting for firearm owner's rights since 2001's push to ban "assault weapons" from the state of Illinois. In 2009 they formed the Illinois Firearm Manufacturers Association (IFMA) and setup rules on how parties could join and what their contributions should be. They hired a lobbyist and went to work. As they were the only two manufacturers to utilize the IFMA, their names are on the documents readily available through the IRS website. (Historic proof available to everyone here.) Since that date the lobbyist, Mr Jay Keller was brought on board. The key piece of information to keep in mind is that Mr Keller was a well regarded lobbyist, but he was not specifically a firearm lobbyist. As such, he was not aware of the historic failings of company in our community and was driven by getting results. The biggest weapon in his arsenal was that he could reach out to Democrat legislators and impact things in ways other lobbyists in the state could not. These two facts are critical to everything which then transpired this year and led us to today.

In a March meeting over SB-1657, a bill with wide impact to Illinois gun owners, Keller stated that if manufacturers (all manufacturers in the state) were given an exemption, the IFMA would go silent at the vote. This was something other lobby groups also did for their respective representation. In short, a number of exemptions were granted and can be seen in the notes from an earlier session. (Available here.) So manufacturers, not just RRA and SA, would be given an exemption, but so would others like brick and mortar stores, police departments, small dealers, folks selling their guns, and so forth. When the vote came on April 27th, the first day of NRA Show, the IFMA took no positions. (Can be seen here.) The bill passed the vote and chaos errupted for everyone involved. (Vote information can be seen here.)

As the community got wind of this, it began to spread and RRA/SA were approached at the NRA show. After speaking with RRA we came to find out that they were not involved with their lobbyist, so this all was a surprise. It was a position they were not accepting of and have since left the IFMA they created and have begun to work with other firearm lobbyists in the state. Regardless of this, the damage has been done and now the fight moves to the next vote. If it passes that, then it go to the Governor's desk where it will have one more chance to be rejected. (You can find the bill status here and the full bill here.)

At this time the focus by the NRA, firearm owners, firearm companies, and others is to defeat this bill from progressing. The lobbyists I spoke to in the state have mentioned that RRA is fighting beside them, which they need.

In my efforts, I also took the time to speak with a couple companies who were gracious enough to walk me through their relationship with lobbyists. For the most part, they hire them and expect them to represent the interests of the company and the firearm community without much assistance. They are not micromanaged and often times go months without contact. There are obvious interactions when critical bills are introduced which need their attention, along with times when they are asked to be more hands on. So for RRA and SA to have relied on their lobbyist to work with freedom was not unusual.

I also spent time speaking to a number of lobbyists, across different states, in regards to donations to speak to representatives. In the case of IFMA, there were donations made to anti gun politicians, which folks have questioned. From what I was able to learn, it is commonplace to have to "pay" for your voice to be heard. Most often it's in smaller amounts, but I did hear that the amounts "required" can be quite staggering. Understand that this is JUST to be able to discuss their lobby's position and try to convince them of how their vote could impact business and communities in the state. Since I did not speak with Keller, I can not say this is what happened with IFMA's donations, but I find it extremely likely that the donations in question were for this exact purpose. Knowing his strength was in reaching across the aisle, it makes even more sense that he would do everything in his power to try to help fight anti gun laws by trying to sway a few extra votes.


With all of this said, I do not believe in the boycotting of any firearm company, as burning one of our own to the ground harms us more than helps. I do, however, feel you should vote with your wallet, which is the loudest voice we have as a group. You are welcome to discuss this matter in this thread and either continue to support these companies or look elsewhere. ARFCOM has decided that ignorance is not a valid excuse and that fault still lies with these companies for not staying on top of such critical legislation. Because of this, we have terminated our relationship with RRA, but are allowing their forum to remain here for them to have a means to communicate with the community. They will only be here to discuss fighting this legislation as they continue forward. Please understand that they are not hiding from the fact that they are at fault by putting too much faith in Keller.


I will ask that folks do not turn to harassing RRA in their forum or on the site and that conversations be kept in appropriate discussions. If I forgot anything, or mistyped something, please correct me. It has been a long couple of days.

Excellent information, and thanks for reposting it here. Rep inbound.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[TheDude]

No sweat. I've been curious why Armalite & DS arms weren't in the IFMA considering they share the same town or rather Armalite does in Geneseo.