pro-gun bumper sticker as probable cause for pat down

[Timjoebillybob]

The only time I'm REQUIRED to show ID is if I'm guilty of an infraction or ordinance violation, correct?

You have to ID yourself(not necessarily show ID, you can do so verbally name/dob/address) if the officer in good faith believes you have committed an infraction or ordinance violation. You don't have to be guilty of it. But other than that, yes you are correct.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

You have to ID yourself(not necessarily show ID, you can do so verbally name/dob/address) if the officer in good faith believes you have committed an infraction or ordinance violation. You don't have to be guilty of it. But other than that, yes you are correct.

Sorry but that is untrue, I can require that you provide identification during any contact I have with you. The way that we identify ourselves in Indiana is through a state issued drivers license or identification card. Please do not make the mistake of thinking that you do not have to provide this when asked by a LEO, you will be hurting no one but your self.

 

[Rookie]

Sorry but that is untrue, I can require that you provide identification during any contact I have with you. The way that we identify ourselves in Indiana is through a state issued drivers license or identification card. Please do not make the mistake of thinking that you do not have to provide this when asked by a LEO, you will be hurting no one but your self.

IC please.

 

[Rookie]

Case law would work as well.

 

[ryknoll3]

Sorry but that is untrue, I can require that you provide identification during any contact I have with you. The way that we identify ourselves in Indiana is through a state issued drivers license or identification card. Please do not make the mistake of thinking that you do not have to provide this when asked by a LEO, you will be hurting no one but your self.

Yes, please cite case law or statute backing up your statement, but besides that, you really believe that you can walk up to someone on the street and demand ID and they have to show it? WOW!

 

[Bill of Rights]

To me it is an unreasonable request, if I wanted it in the trunk I would of put it there. Which I sometimes do with long guns or with handguns that I am not carrying for defense. Also as Bill mentioned, I will not be opening my trunk willingly. I will not willingly allow a plain view search of my trunk, by forcing me to open it so you can place my firearm inside you have violated the 4th amendment for unreasonable search....

Of note, he later specified that he would ask you to open your trunk and (you) place your pistol inside. It's still exposing it to a plain-view search, but he's not the one putting the pistol inside.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Sorry but that is untrue, I can require that you provide identification during any contact I have with you. The way that we identify ourselves in Indiana is through a state issued drivers license or identification card. Please do not make the mistake of thinking that you do not have to provide this when asked by a LEO, you will be hurting no one but your self.

What if a person doesn't have an ID/DL in their possession? Or at all?
Please see below for the actual IC regarding identifying.

And again, are you a special/reserve deputy or an explorer? Again that is not meant as an insult.

IC please.

I'll show mine, let's see if he'll show his.

IC 34-28-5-3
Detention
Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
(1) inform the person of the allegation;
(2) obtain the person's:
(A) name, address, and date of birth; or
(B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
(3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.
IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

Of note, he later specified that he would ask you to open your trunk and (you) place your pistol inside. It's still exposing it to a plain-view search, but he's not the one putting the pistol inside.

Blessings,
Bill

I stand corrected. But from his posts here, do you really believe he would "let" you put it in there yourself?

 

[IndyGunner]

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.

Two questions here... does that mean that if I have my drivers license I have to show it... or is that an either or 1 or 2 thing?

And... I was at a lake with some friends just hanging out, two officers came up and said someone reported we were doing drugs (not true) and asked us for our ID. I asked why I needed to show it and he said that if it were his superior officer id be getting arrested. Refer to bold, if I wasnt doing anything wrong, wouldnt this void requiring me to show ID?

 

[Bill of Rights]

...I stand corrected. But from his posts here, do you really believe he would "let" you put it in there yourself?

All I have to go on is what the man posted. He said he would. Until proven otherwise, I'd have to say yes. If he pulled me over and did otherwise, I can say with certainty that I'd never trust anything he said again, and I'd make sure everyone knew about it.

 

[snowman46919]

All I have to go on is what the man posted. He said he would. Until proven otherwise, I'd have to say yes. If he pulled me over and did otherwise, I can say with certainty that I'd never trust anything he said again, and I'd make sure everyone knew about it.

Also based on his posts here if I did not open my trunk satisfactorily that would give him pc for a search and at that point since the trunk is already open I am stuck on the side of the road again while somebody wants to poke around in my stuff.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Two questions here... does that mean that if I have my drivers license I have to show it... or is that an either or 1 or 2 thing?

It seems to me to be an either/or.

And... I was at a lake with some friends just hanging out, two officers came up and said someone reported we were doing drugs (not true) and asked us for our ID. I asked why I needed to show it and he said that if it were his superior officer id be getting arrested. Refer to bold, if I wasnt doing anything wrong, wouldnt this void requiring me to show ID?

"Officer, I understand that someone has falsely reported and accused me of a crime. I'm innocent of that charge and have no burning need to show you my ID. I'll be glad to tell you who I am if the law requires it."

Now, keep in mind that this will likely get you arrested, however falsely, and they WILL find out who you are, one way or the other. If you don't want an arrest on your record, make it easier on them. If you want a case that you can possibly turn into a false-arrest payoff, get yourself busted and go from there.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[IndyGunner]

Well we now live in a police state thanks to this bull****... http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf

so whats the point in resisting now. All I can say is that if you want my trunk open, youre doing it.

 

[IndyGunner]

It seems to me to be an either/or."Officer, I understand that someone has falsely reported and accused me of a crime. I'm innocent of that charge and have no burning need to show you my ID. I'll be glad to tell you who I am if the law requires it."

Now, keep in mind that this will likely get you arrested, however falsely, and they WILL find out who you are, one way or the other. If you don't want an arrest on your record, make it easier on them. If you want a case that you can possibly turn into a false-arrest payoff, get yourself busted and go from there.

Blessings,
Bill

I told the guy "sir im going to show you my ID, I just want to know why I am being asked by an officer for my identification." This was BEFORE I knew why he was there... I honestly had no idea and was shocked when he said someone reported that we were getting high. Which, like I said, was completely false. I just wanted to know why I was being asked for ID... which apparently gets you in jail these days.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Also based on his posts here if I did not open my trunk satisfactorily that would give him pc for a search and at that point since the trunk is already open I am stuck on the side of the road again while somebody wants to poke around in my stuff.

I'm waiting on his answer to that. My simply refusing to open my trunk is not PC for a search. So... if I've shown my LTCH and he has no further authority to hold my pistol and I'm not opening my trunk, what's he going to do with it? (hint: The answer should be that he never took it from me in the first place. I'd settle for him giving it back, however, in the same condition it was handed to him.)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Roadie]

 

[IndyGunner]

 

[FCSD 23-18]

I'm waiting on his answer to that. My simply refusing to open my trunk is not PC for a search. So... if I've shown my LTCH and he has no further authority to hold my pistol and I'm not opening my trunk, what's he going to do with it? (hint: The answer should be that he never took it from me in the first place. I'd settle for him giving it back, however, in the same condition it was handed to him.)

Blessings,
Bill

No your simple refusal to not open your trunk does not give an officer PC to search it, anyone who operates in this fashion is truly unprofessional.

Guys I'm just trying to give you insigh into the way things are actually done in the field. I discussed our conversation with other officers from several agency's today and they all share my opinion that we do have the authority to disarm a properly licensed armed citizen during the process of a field interview or traffic stop. The consensus was who cares if evidence is suppressed, or feelings are hurt. As long as you can articulate that you felt officer safety was the issue that led to your actions. I know that you guys are not going to like this, and some will attack me personally but that is just the way it is. There is not an unlawfully seizure taking place because the weapon is not being removed from your presence. Where the water gets gray is if I disarm you for the purpose of running your weapon to determine rather or not it is stolen. If that was the sole reason for disarming you then we get into 4th issues. I enjoy debating this with you guys but I ask that you limit the personal attacks just because you do not like the way we operate. Until there is case law that says someone can not be disarmed that is lawfully armed, I will continue to do so on a case by case basis to ensure my and my fellow officers safety.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

It seems to me to be an either/or."Officer, I understand that someone has falsely reported and accused me of a crime. I'm innocent of that charge and have no burning need to show you my ID. I'll be glad to tell you who I am if the law requires it."

Now, keep in mind that this will likely get you arrested, however falsely, and they WILL find out who you are, one way or the other. If you don't want an arrest on your record, make it easier on them. If you want a case that you can possibly turn into a false-arrest payoff, get yourself busted and go from there.

Blessings,
Bill

In practice it goes like this, if you do not have your DL or ID on you then it is permit able to give name, DOB, Address.

I arrested a guy once because he refused to identify himself, we brought him in front of the judge every day for about two weeks until we had a family member come and make a missing persons report. It turned out that he was an illegal alien from Mexico.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

Well we now live in a police state thanks to this bull****... http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf

so whats the point in resisting now. All I can say is that if you want my trunk open, youre doing it.

Many Law Enforcement Officers including myself spent a full day down in INDY protesting this decision. The latest is that the court is going to review their decision so lets pray.

 

[Rookie]

I haven't seen much in personal attacks, but if you feel I'm guilty then my apologies. I think we all agree that you can disarm someone using officer safety as a reason. Can you agree that officer safety is over used by many officers?

The question I still have is, am I required to show ID any time I'm asked or only if I'm guilty of an infraction or ordinance violation? What about misdemeanors or felonies?

BTW, if you feel slighted by someone, feel free to ignore them, but don't punish the others that are interested in learning.
Appreciate your input.