pro-gun bumper sticker as probable cause for pat down

[Oliver]

Everytime I see a little import car with a fart can muffler and a big stupid wing on the trunk, I instantly figure it's some smart @ss kid with baggy pants and a pocket full of dope. I shouldn't feel that way, but if I were a cop I'd figure thats a good one to pull over.
Regardless, let em pull me over, I have my ltch and don't have anything else to hide.

I drive an STi :-/ no fart can, but my wing waves hello. Haha
I have zero stickers and have never had a problem when talking with leo. Then again, I've also never said a word about my gun on me either.

 

[Bill of Rights]

FCSD, two things: the brief you offered specified a "suspect", not just a citizen, but the much larger issue is that while as a person, you have rights, in your role as a police officer (that is, an agent of government) you have no rights at all; you have authority and you have powers granted you by government, but not rights. This is an important difference: your rights as a person are yours until you die, even if they are improperly and/or unConstitutionally restricted. You could lose both your authority and your powers by the simple act of changing jobs.

Roadie, you also made a false statement: carrying a handgun in this state is a crime. A defense against the charge is that you hold a valid LTCH or are a member of one of the groups not required to purchase one.

All of that said, though, you're also both correct in that while the sticker alone would not be proper PC or RAS for a search for weapons, I have little doubt that some courts would be all too happy to support such as if it was.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[KG1]

As a cop I believe that the presence of a pro 2A sticker would give me reasonable suspicion to ask the person if he/she was armed and if I was not satisfied by their answer I would have the reasonable suspicion I needed for a Terry Search. Its not about trampling our 2A rights it is about safety and going home.

One of the many reasons why I haven't and never will put any gun related stickers on any of my vehicles. Am I free to go now?

 

[pinshooter45]

On my truck I have:

NRA sticker
Jump wings sticker
Hydrocarbon eco-vehicle sticker
Denver Broncos hitch cover

I wonder what kind of probable cause that creates?

Probably only if you get stopped by a liberal LEO that's a Colt fan!

 

[Hotdoger]

As a cop I believe that the presence of a pro 2A sticker would give me reasonable suspicion to ask the person if he/she was armed and if I was not satisfied by their answer I would have the reasonable suspicion I needed for a Terry Search. Its not about trampling our 2A rights it is about safety and going home.

It is about trampling 2A rights.
If anything the sticker should indicate a law abiding gun owner to a reasonable thinking person. How many tugs do you arrest that have gun related stickers on their hoopties?
But why let facts get in the way of a good fishing trip?

The arbitariness of meeting satisfactory answers for you is a poor standard to have, to conduct warrantless searchs.

 

[Hammerhead]

As a cop I believe that the presence of a pro 2A sticker would give me reasonable suspicion to ask the person if he/she was armed and if I was not satisfied by their answer I would have the reasonable suspicion I needed for a Terry Search. Its not about trampling our 2A rights it is about safety and going home.

I have not (never been pulled over while carrying) nor will I ever answer any question not related to the reason I've been stopped while driving. If you don't like my non-answers, you can go pound sand. I am not required by any law to answer your questions, nor am I required by any law to inform you that I am armed.

If, by some random happenstance that I have A) a pro-2A or pro-firearms sticker, 2) am armed and n-1) you find out, I will produce my LTCH and you can verify it, and then return it to me and go pound sand about my weapon.

If I'm walking down the street, and you see me armed, and you decide to come speak to me, you can see my LTCH and verify it's validity, and then go pound sand. No, I will not provide my driver's license. No, I will not stick around and small talk with you. Am I being detained? No? Have a nice day and watch your six.

You see a pattern here? I'm a law abiding citizen. I carry legally. You don't like it, go pound sand. The lawful carry of a firearm is not PC or RAS of a crime having been, being, or will be committed.

Your attitude towards stickers is really bothersome. Ask all the questions you want. Don't expect answers.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I have not (never been pulled over while carrying) nor will I ever answer any question not related to the reason I've been stopped while driving. If you don't like my non-answers, you can go pound sand. I am not required by any law to answer your questions, nor am I required by any law to inform you that I am armed.

If, by some random happenstance that I have A) a pro-2A or pro-firearms sticker, 2) am armed and n-1) you find out, I will produce my LTCH and you can verify it, and then return it to me and go pound sand about my weapon.

If I'm walking down the street, and you see me armed, and you decide to come speak to me, you can see my LTCH and verify it's validity, and then go pound sand. No, I will not provide my driver's license. No, I will not stick around and small talk with you. Am I being detained? No? Have a nice day and watch your six.

You see a pattern here? I'm a law abiding citizen. I carry legally. You don't like it, go pound sand. The lawful carry of a firearm is not PC or RAS of a crime having been, being, or will be committed.

Your attitude towards stickers is really bothersome. Ask all the questions you want. Don't expect answers.

While I agree with your position, when the officer reaches for or orders you to surrender your firearm, I recommend you not be surprised when any response other than, "I do not consent to any confiscation or search of my person or vehicle." results in unpleasant actions on the part of the officer.

If/when they do, I recommend you look upon it as a financial opportunity.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Rookie]

As a cop I believe that the presence of a pro 2A sticker would give me reasonable suspicion to ask the person if he/she was armed and if I was not satisfied by their answer I would have the reasonable suspicion I needed for a Terry Search. Its not about trampling our 2A rights it is about safety and going home.

I was going to leave this alone, but it's like a train wreck.

You pull me over for speeding...
You: license and registration.
Me: here you go sir.
You: do you have any weapons?
Me: sir, I will not answer any questions.

Don't like that answer? Where's your probable cause for a terry search? Please, please, please, let me read your report..."suspect politely refused to answer my questions "
Officer safety has become a crutch, plain and simple. He's exercising his rights and refusing to play my game - officer safety to the rescue!

 

[KG1]

As a cop I believe that the presence of a pro 2A sticker would give me reasonable suspicion to ask the person. if he/she was armed and if I was not satisfied by their answer I would have the reasonable suspicion I needed for a Terry Search. Its not about trampling our 2A rights it is about safety and going home.

I've already commented on this one and the more I read it the more bothersome it becomes. Following the OP's logic then I wonder if he would also agree that if he observed a vehicle with a pro 2A sticker attached that it would give him the authority and RS to light that vehicle up, if he chose to do so and determine if there were indeed a firearm in the vehicle and if it was legal to posses?

 

[Bill of Rights]

I was going to leave this alone, but it's like a train wreck.

You pull me over for speeding...
You: license and registration.
Me: here you go sir.
You: do you have any weapons?
Me: sir, I will not answer any questions.

Don't like that answer? Where's your probable cause for a terry search? Please, please, please, let me read your report..."suspect politely refused to answer my questions "
Officer safety has become a crutch, plain and simple. He's exercising his rights and refusing to play my game - officer safety to the rescue!

Best have a recorder going. An officer who would pull you out like that might not be inclined to write his report with those details included.
With the automatic perception of truth assumed of LEOs in court, your word against his means you lose. Most, I think, have enough scruples and integrity to not do that, but then, most of those wouldn't be the ones pulling you over to ask THAT question, IMHO.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[The Bubba Effect]

If I get pulled over today, the officer could not help but notice that I am a gun owner.

I just got back from working an Appleseed in Bedford and my car is still packed with "gun junk" (steel targets, hearing protection, paper targets, magazines, ammo, brass, etc) in addition to the usual load of "gun junk" I generally carry around. Heck, on most days if you open any door to my explorer, there's better than a 50/50 chance that spent casings will fall out + my cupholders are full of loose ammo.

In addition, my driver's side window switch is broken, so I would either have to interact across the console through the passenger side window or open my door (obviously I would inform the officer of the issue and ask how they wanted me to proceed before opening the door). If I open my driver's side door, one could not help but notice that my door pocket is packed full of rifle and pistol mags.

My front passenger seat is stacked full of ammo cans, staple guns and hearing protection.

I don't put stickers on my vehicles, but if I get stopped, the officer is going to figure out that I'm a "gun guy" pretty darn quick. If I'm on my game, I'll "appleseed them" and see if I can get them to take some flyers to hand out at the shop.

 

[IndyGunner]

Sorry my friend but you are wrong on this one police officers are in fact paid to act on what they believe. Please read Terry v. Ohio this does in fact give us the right to conduct a search for weapons. Please do not think that I am being argumentative I just want for all of you to be informed and I am not the sort of cop that tramples others rights. Here is a brief of the case incase you are not familiar with it. while a sticker in and of its self does not create PC it does provide RS that the occupant may be armed and until contact is made we don't know if you are a BG or not.

Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous." (392 U.S. 1, at 30.)
For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to in short as a "stop and frisk," or simply a "Terry stop". The Terry standard was later extended to temporary detentions of persons in vehicles, known as traffic stops; see Terry stop for a summary of subsequent jurisprudence.
The rationale behind the Supreme Court decision revolves around the understanding that, as the opinion notes, "the exclusionary rule has its limitations." The meaning of the rule is to protect persons from unreasonable searches and seizures aimed at gathering evidence, not searches and seizures for other purposes (like prevention of crime or personal protection of police officers).

As a LEO I am so tired of the us v.s. them mindset that many of us have. I fully believe that we are no better that the citizens that we police, and that it is just a job.

So by that logic I should be able to search your police car, because youre obviously carrying. I might have to search your house and dog as well... just to be sure you arent some crazy nut job that just got through the police academy. Police officers obviously cant be trusted to take my information or even approach my window, until we make contact and I disarm them. The bold just made me


I wonder how many bad guys open carry or post NRA or other firearm stickers on their vehicle/clothing/etc.

 

[Hammerhead]

While I agree with your position, when the officer reaches for or orders you to surrender your firearm, I recommend you not be surprised when any response other than, "I do not consent to any confiscation or search of my person or vehicle." results in unpleasant actions on the part of the officer.

If/when they do, I recommend you look upon it as a financial opportunity.

Blessings,
Bill

Obviously. I didn't address the next step (erroneously seen by some LEOs as logical) which is some sort of physical interaction (i.e. hand it over, being drawn down upon, etc.). If it comes to that, I'll be politely but firmly asserting my rights and/or becoming a parrot (Am I being detained? Am I free to go?).

Best have a recorder going. An officer who would pull you out like that might not be inclined to write his report with those details included.
With the automatic perception of truth assumed of LEOs in court, your word against his means you lose. Most, I think, have enough scruples and integrity to not do that, but then, most of those wouldn't be the ones pulling you over to ask THAT question, IMHO.

Blessings,
Bill

This +1000. I'll have my voice recorder and hopefully my video camera going too.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

I was going to leave this alone, but it's like a train wreck.

You pull me over for speeding...
You: license and registration.
Me: here you go sir.
You: do you have any weapons?
Me: sir, I will not answer any questions.

Don't like that answer? Where's your probable cause for a terry search? Please, please, please, let me read your report..."suspect politely refused to answer my questions "
Officer safety has become a crutch, plain and simple. He's exercising his rights and refusing to play my game - officer safety to the rescue!

Lets use your above statement , assume I Stopped you and the conversation went along the lines of the one you created my report would read as follows.

On the above date and time vehicle X was observed through the use of my commission's radar equiptment exceeding the maximum posted speed limit. I then initiated a traffic stop of the target vehicle and while waiting for the return on the plates from dispatch I observed that there were several gun related stickers attached to the rear of the vehicle. Some of these stickers I recognized through my experience and training to be stickers that are given as a promotion with the purchases of a firearm.
Upon approaching the drivers side of the vehicle I made contact with the driver of the vehicle who was the sole occupant. I then asked the driver of the vehicle for his license and registration. The driver of the vehicle complied with this request and presented the requested documents. I then asked the driver of the vehicle if he was armed or if there were any weapons present in the vehicle. The drivers response to this question was " sir, I will not answer any questions." I once againn asked the driver of the vehicle if there were weapons present and the driver once againn responded by saying " sir, I will not answer any questions."
It was the belief of this officer due to the drivers avoidance of my lawfully asked question that he was attempting to conceal the presence of a weapon. I then asked the driver to exit his vehicle and upon doing so I conducted a Terry Search of the driver and the areas in the vehicle directly under his control. This Terry search did in fact reveal that there was afirearmm in the vehicle and further investigation revealed that the driver of the vehicle did in fact have a valid license to carry a handgun, thus lawfully being inpossessionn of said weapon. The weapon was then secured in the subjects trunk for duration of the investigation, A Uniform Traffic Ticket was issued and the subject was given a court date and copies of the citation this concludes the traffic stop.

** The stickers alone do not give PC to stop a vehicle.
** The stickers do lend themselves to RS that there is a weapon in the vehicle through my training and experience.
** The sticker, my training, my experience, your demeanor, and my stopping you for an investigation of a traffic violation all lend themselves to the RS I need to conduct a Terry Search.
** Be real carefull someday you are going to run across a rookie officer that may catch a glance of your weapon that you did not announce you had and then the drama will ensue.
** I am not afraid of all armed citizens or other officers as one post stated, I have no idea who has the intent to do me harm therefore I treat all armed citizens with their due respect and caution.
** Once again I do not trample peoples rights, I have personally fought for and shed blood to ensue that we keep our rights. I simply treat each situation with the level of safety that the totality of the circumstances call for.

In closing I know that I will not win this argument with all of the cop haters on this board, it was just my intent to add my experiences to the conversation.

 

[snowman46919]

Lets use your above statement , assume I Stopped you and the conversation went along the lines of the one you created my report would read as follows.

On the above date and time vehicle X was observed through the use of my commission's radar equiptment exceeding the maximum posted speed limit. I then initiated a traffic stop of the target vehicle and while waiting for the return on the plates from dispatch I observed that there were several gun related stickers attached to the rear of the vehicle. Some of these stickers I recognized through my experience and training to be stickers that are given as a promotion with the purchases of a firearm.
Upon approaching the drivers side of the vehicle I made contact with the driver of the vehicle who was the sole occupant. I then asked the driver of the vehicle for his license and registration. The driver of the vehicle complied with this request and presented the requested documents. I then asked the driver of the vehicle if he was armed or if there were any weapons present in the vehicle. The drivers response to this question was " sir, I will not answer any questions." I once againn asked the driver of the vehicle if there were weapons present and the driver once againn responded by saying " sir, I will not answer any questions."
It was the belief of this officer due to the drivers avoidance of my lawfully asked question that he was attempting to conceal the presence of a weapon. I then asked the driver to exit his vehicle and upon doing so I conducted a Terry Search of the driver and the areas in the vehicle directly under his control. This Terry search did in fact reveal that there was afirearmm in the vehicle and further investigation revealed that the driver of the vehicle did in fact have a valid license to carry a handgun, thus lawfully being inpossessionn of said weapon. The weapon was then secured in the subjects trunk for duration of the investigation, A Uniform Traffic Ticket was issued and the subject was given a court date and copies of the citation this concludes the traffic stop.

** The stickers alone do not give PC to stop a vehicle.
** The stickers do lend themselves to RS that there is a weapon in the vehicle through my training and experience.
** The sticker, my training, my experience, your demeanor, and my stopping you for an investigation of a traffic violation all lend themselves to the RS I need to conduct a Terry Search.
** Be real carefull someday you are going to run across a rookie officer that may catch a glance of your weapon that you did not announce you had and then the drama will ensue.
** I am not afraid of all armed citizens or other officers as one post stated, I have no idea who has the intent to do me harm therefore I treat all armed citizens with their due respect and caution.
** Once again I do not trample peoples rights, I have personally fought for and shed blood to ensue that we keep our rights. I simply treat each situation with the level of safety that the totality of the circumstances call for.

In closing I know that I will not win this argument with all of the cop haters on this board, it was just my intent to add my experiences to the conversation.

So if I follow the law I will be pulled from the car. If the question can cause me to be detained then why is it law that I do not have to answer it. Why is it even in your repertoire?

 

[IndyGunner]

The driver of the vehicle complied with this request and presented the requested documents. I then asked the driver of the vehicle if he was armed or if there were any weapons present in the vehicle. The drivers response to this question was " sir, I will not answer any questions." I once againn asked the driver of the vehicle if there were weapons present and the driver once againn responded by saying " sir, I will not answer any questions."
It was the belief of this officer due to the drivers avoidance of my lawfully asked question that he was attempting to conceal the presence of a weapon.

First off... its a firearm... not a weapon until it is used as such. Like a steak knife or a large maglite... or even your legs (more people are kicked to death than shot to death every year). This always bothers me, especially when a "man of law" who should be formally and extensively educated says it.

Second... (refer to bold)... if I gave you my LTCH, wouldn't you think I would possess a firearm, and legally as well. What is the point in harassing lawful felonless registered gun owners because they have stickers promoting self defense?

Third (to the OP and anyone else)... are we talking about stickers AFTER a traffic stop for a reason, or are we saying being pulled over for having say a glock or NRA sticker.

 

[KG1]

Lets use your above statement , assume I Stopped you and the conversation went along the lines of the one you created my report would read as follows.

On the above date and time vehicle X was observed through the use of my commission's radar equiptment exceeding the maximum posted speed limit. I then initiated a traffic stop of the target vehicle and while waiting for the return on the plates from dispatch I observed that there were several gun related stickers attached to the rear of the vehicle. Some of these stickers I recognized through my experience and training to be stickers that are given as a promotion with the purchases of a firearm.
Upon approaching the drivers side of the vehicle I made contact with the driver of the vehicle who was the sole occupant. I then asked the driver of the vehicle for his license and registration. The driver of the vehicle complied with this request and presented the requested documents. I then asked the driver of the vehicle if he was armed or if there were any weapons present in the vehicle. The drivers response to this question was " sir, I will not answer any questions." I once againn asked the driver of the vehicle if there were weapons present and the driver once againn responded by saying " sir, I will not answer any questions."
It was the belief of this officer due to the drivers avoidance of my lawfully asked question that he was attempting to conceal the presence of a weapon. I then asked the driver to exit his vehicle and upon doing so I conducted a Terry Search of the driver and the areas in the vehicle directly under his control. This Terry search did in fact reveal that there was afirearmm in the vehicle and further investigation revealed that the driver of the vehicle did in fact have a valid license to carry a handgun, thus lawfully being inpossessionn of said weapon. The weapon was then secured in the subjects trunk for duration of the investigation, A Uniform Traffic Ticket was issued and the subject was given a court date and copies of the citation this concludes the traffic stop.

** The stickers alone do not give PC to stop a vehicle.
** The stickers do lend themselves to RS that there is a weapon in the vehicle through my training and experience.
** The sticker, my training, my experience, your demeanor, and my stopping you for an investigation of a traffic violation all lend themselves to the RS I need to conduct a Terry Search.
** Be real carefull someday you are going to run across a rookie officer that may catch a glance of your weapon that you did not announce you had and then the drama will ensue.
** I am not afraid of all armed citizens or other officers as one post stated, I have no idea who has the intent to do me harm therefore I treat all armed citizens with their due respect and caution.
** Once again I do not trample peoples rights, I have personally fought for and shed blood to ensue that we keep our rights. I simply treat each situation with the level of safety that the totality of the circumstances call for.

In closing I know that I will not win this argument with all of the cop haters on this board, it was just my intent to add my experiences to the conversation.

It's unfortunate that you had to take it in this direction It's inflamatory and kinda taints the rest of your post in my opinion.

 

[Roadie]

Lets use your above statement , assume I Stopped you and the conversation went along the lines of the one you created my report would read as follows.

On the above date and time vehicle X was observed through the use of my commission's radar equiptment exceeding the maximum posted speed limit. I then initiated a traffic stop of the target vehicle and while waiting for the return on the plates from dispatch I observed that there were several gun related stickers attached to the rear of the vehicle. Some of these stickers I recognized through my experience and training to be stickers that are given as a promotion with the purchases of a firearm.
Upon approaching the drivers side of the vehicle I made contact with the driver of the vehicle who was the sole occupant. I then asked the driver of the vehicle for his license and registration. The driver of the vehicle complied with this request and presented the requested documents. I then asked the driver of the vehicle if he was armed or if there were any weapons present in the vehicle. The drivers response to this question was " sir, I will not answer any questions." I once againn asked the driver of the vehicle if there were weapons present and the driver once againn responded by saying " sir, I will not answer any questions."
It was the belief of this officer due to the drivers avoidance of my lawfully asked question that he was attempting to conceal the presence of a weapon. I then asked the driver to exit his vehicle and upon doing so I conducted a Terry Search of the driver and the areas in the vehicle directly under his control. This Terry search did in fact reveal that there was afirearmm in the vehicle and further investigation revealed that the driver of the vehicle did in fact have a valid license to carry a handgun, thus lawfully being inpossessionn of said weapon. The weapon was then secured in the subjects trunk for duration of the investigation, A Uniform Traffic Ticket was issued and the subject was given a court date and copies of the citation this concludes the traffic stop.

** The stickers alone do not give PC to stop a vehicle.
** The stickers do lend themselves to RS that there is a weapon in the vehicle through my training and experience.
** The sticker, my training, my experience, your demeanor, and my stopping you for an investigation of a traffic violation all lend themselves to the RS I need to conduct a Terry Search.
** Be real carefull someday you are going to run across a rookie officer that may catch a glance of your weapon that you did not announce you had and then the drama will ensue.
** I am not afraid of all armed citizens or other officers as one post stated, I have no idea who has the intent to do me harm therefore I treat all armed citizens with their due respect and caution.
** Once again I do not trample peoples rights, I have personally fought for and shed blood to ensue that we keep our rights. I simply treat each situation with the level of safety that the totality of the circumstances call for.

In closing I know that I will not win this argument with all of the cop haters on this board, it was just my intent to add my experiences to the conversation.

Your first mistake is feeling that just because someone disagrees with you they are "cop haters"... It makes you come across as if you think you are above reproach and debate, you are not..

You ignored my previous post, will you ignore it once again? Let's see..

Wrong.. read this part again..

Armed AND presently dangerous WHILE suspicion exists of a crime..

Not just "armed".

If there is no RS of a crime, or that the person is "presently dangerous" then Terry does not apply. Also, Indiana Supreme Court ruling state that once the LTCH is verified, there can be no further action regarding the gun.

Arguing that a person may be armed because of an NRA sticker is a "hunch".

Let me give you another example..
Do you think that a Judge would accept stopping a car because it has a Grateful Dead sticker on it as PC for a search for pot?

Sorry, but carrying a gun is a Right enumerated by both the 2nd, and Article 1 Section 32 of the Indiana Constitution. It is not illegal, and cannot in and of itself be used as PC for a search. (as case law in many States would agree)

The "it is not illegal" part of the above post has been disputed, I however, am still not convinced. The rest of my post stands, and you are mis-using and/or misunderstanding Terry...

 

[Roadie]

I also question the legality of you using someone not answering a question, as RS to initiate a Terry search. I wish we could get one of our resident attorneys to speak on this, because I think they would agree with me.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

Your first mistake is feeling that just because someone disagrees with you they are "cop haters"... It makes you come across as if you think you are above reproach and debate, you are not..

You ignored my previous post, will you ignore it once again? Let's see..



The "it is not illegal" part of the above post has been disputed, I however, am still not convinced. The rest of my post stands, and you are mis-using and/or misunderstanding Terry...

In the scenario that I was given and wrote the report about the driver was acting uncooperative toward my investigation, He did not inform me that he held a License to carry, The stickers along with his behavior and my experience and training led me to believe he may be in possession of a firearm, also he is under investigation for an infraction of Indiana Traffic Code. Terry v. Ohio states "For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" (see my above statement) and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This would all be avoided if the driver would have just gave up the carry license and said yes I am armed. Because of the drivers avoidance of my question along with the other facts that I have articulated it becomes an officer safety situation that allows a Terry Search under Terry V. Ohio. As far as me asking if you are armed, there is absolutely no problem with this just like I can ask you if you have any contraband in the car. If you falsely answer my question you have just committed a crime.

I would like to recant my statement about people being cop haters, I just felt like I was being attacked instead of us having an intelligent conversation. I do not feel that I am above anyone because of the position I hold but it is hard to argue that some of the statements made about my prior posts were direct attacks against me personally and not the topic we are discussing. I hope I answered your question if not please ask agian more directly and I will do my best.