Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[chipbennett]

I agree that Doloff's move appears to be a defensive block which caused Keltner to smack the ugly off of him.

"Normally", that would cause both combatants to back up. It should have ended right there, and probably would have if Doloff had any real security training.

That's a long way from use of a firearm. Lots of intermediate steps available.

Interestingly, that's exactly what Keltner did. He started backing up, and was backing away as Doloff drew and fired his gun. (In fact, this sequence is so blatantly obvious from available evidence that the Denver Compost had to describe it as Keltner "backing up to use his pepper spray." (Because everyone knows that you back away in order to deploy pepper spray. )

 

[chipbennett]

Given the information available? Absolutely. If I see a armed guy, with pepper spray in one hand, get into a verbal altercation with another person, and then advances upon the guy I’m supposed to protect issuing the threat about “****ing him up,” and a place myself in-between the two, receive a forceful slap; I will draw down on him. If he swings his hand up from his gun side, where I have noticed a firearm, and with something in his hand, I hope he made peace with the Lord, if I fast enough.

The holstered firearm was in a shoulder holster under his left shoulder. You already observed that he was holding a can of pepper spray in his right hand. How is he going to draw the holstered firearm? Is his left arm double-jointed?

 

[chipbennett]

I’m sorry SB got smoked, but he was being stupid and it caught up with him. Darwin doesn’t apologize. I suggest conservative, liberal, alien, or tranny.... don’t issue treats, don’t approach a guy trying to keep the peace, and don’t PS a guy who is willing to put you in the ground. So we will disagree about who is at fault for initiating contact in the scenario you described.

Again, based on existing evidence and logical conclusion, Doloff drew his gun on Keltner as Keltner was backing away with the pepper spray still at his side. Keltner then raised the pepper spray in response to having a firearm pointed at him. He deployed the pepper spray, at the earliest, simultaneously with Doloff discharging his gun. It is possible that the pepper spray discharge happened after Doloff discharged his gun (given the photo showing the spray pattern, simultaneous with the gun in the process of going back into battery after having already ejected the brass from the fired round).

To my knowledge, audio, video, still images, and witness interviews all corroborate that it was Doloff who initiated physical contact - at best, none support your otherwise specious contention that Keltner initiated physical contact. I get that it is convenient for you to ignore this evidence so that you can get around Doloff being the initial physical aggressor. But even if we ignore that point, there still is no legally justifiable basis for use of deadly force.

 

[Alpo]

Yup.

Hang him with a new rope.

 

[KG1]

You would think that if Keltner had any inclination that he was going to deploy the PS he would have done so prior to Doloff drawing his firearm. The PS was still in his hand at his side throughout the confrontation including when there was a separation. It appears to me that Keltner deployed the PS as a reaction to Doloff going for his firearm. He had ample opportunity to spray Doloff and the producer prior to Doloff introducing deadly force.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Interestingly, that's exactly what Keltner did. He started backing up, and was backing away as Doloff drew and fired his gun. (In fact, this sequence is so blatantly obvious from available evidence that the Denver Compost had to describe it as Keltner "backing up to use his pepper spray." (Because everyone knows that you back away in order to deploy pepper spray. )

You seem to indicate that Keltner's backing away was a retreat. It could be, but it could just as easily be to increase the reactionary gap... or given the spray cannister he had, trying to avoid spraying himself when he deployed the PS.

 

[chipbennett]

You seem to indicate that Keltner's backing away was a retreat. It could be, but it could just as easily be to increase the reactionary gap... or given the spray cannister he had, trying to avoid spraying himself when he deployed the PS.

You are trying really, really hard to stick to this narrative. Why?

And where is even a modicum of legal justification for the use of deadly force in this situation?

 

[2A_Tom]

Yup.

Hang him with a new rope.

An old frayed, scratchy, cutting rope would be preferred.

 

[2A_Tom]

You are trying really, really hard to stick to this narrative. Why?

And where is even a modicum of legal justification for the use of deadly force in this situation?

Are you new here?

 

[Alpo]

An old frayed, scratchy, cutting rope would be preferred.

It's his first hanging. Celebrate a little. Splurge.

 

[chipbennett]

Are you new here?

Kut and I disagree on some things, but rarely have I ever seen him display such cognitive dissonance to push a narrative utterly at odds with available facts. It is unlike him.

Or, maybe I am just new here...

 

[2A_Tom]

Kut and Alpo are a very necessary part of INGO.

Without them we would basically be an ecko chamber.

Occasionally, Alpo agrees with the majority and that usually makes me reconsider (not change) my position.

I have agreed with Kut on occasion.

 

[Alpo]

I would rephrase that Tom.

Occasionally the dog pile on INGO gets it right.

 

[printcraft]

Every once in a while a parent will buy their kid a toy or candy from the checkout line to shut them up for 5 minutes...

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Here's the slap.... no idea what happened in the preceding 5-7 seconds, though it doesn't really matter...

Here is immediately after the slap, Keitner has retreated a step, the pepper spray is not raised BUT Doloff is DRAWING his gun.

I've seen a cell phone video taken from behind and slightly right of Keitner... it stays on the original counter-protester then swings to Keitner/Doloff right after the slap... it and the HALO/surveillance will not help Doloff at all... not one bit... it appears to have a fairly clear frame of Keitner "startling" at Doloff's producing a gun and starting the pepper spray which appears to still be down by his side and shoots DOWN and to the right while Doloff has both hands on his gun, chest high, about to "push" out and shoot.

Pretty clear to me that Doloff drew his gun because of the slap... and had the gun out of the holster, in both hands, chest high while Keitner's non-lethal pepper spray was still down by his side and pointed down.

Really don't care who said what or who shoved who or ***** slapped who prior to this... appears legit straight up Murder 2... he killed a man for slapping him.

 

[BugI02]

No we don’t know who initiated contact. I not sure why you guys keep saying something that isn’t proven. If I hold my hand up, and you purposefully run into that hand with your chest, you, not I have initiated physical contact.

View attachment 92227

 

[Cameramonkey]

Here is immediately after the slap, Keitner has retreated a step, the pepper spray is not raised BUT Doloff is DRAWING his gun.
Pretty clear to me that Doloff drew his gun because of the slap... and had the gun out of the holster, in both hands, chest high while Keitner's non-lethal pepper spray was still down by his side and pointed down.

Based on the string of photos, I concur. I suspect the pepper spray is a sympathetic squeeze as his body tensed up when hit. Or it was the last thing he had in him before the shot took effect.

 

[chipbennett]

Here's the slap.... no idea what happened in the preceding 5-7 seconds, though it doesn't really matter...

Here is immediately after the slap, Keitner has retreated a step, the pepper spray is not raised BUT Doloff is DRAWING his gun.

I've seen a cell phone video taken from behind and slightly right of Keitner... it stays on the original counter-protester then swings to Keitner/Doloff right after the slap... it and the HALO/surveillance will not help Doloff at all... not one bit... it appears to have a fairly clear frame of Keitner "startling" at Doloff's producing a gun and starting the pepper spray which appears to still be down by his side and shoots DOWN and to the right while Doloff has both hands on his gun, chest high, about to "push" out and shoot.

Pretty clear to me that Doloff drew his gun because of the slap... and had the gun out of the holster, in both hands, chest high while Keitner's non-lethal pepper spray was still down by his side and pointed down.

Really don't care who said what or who shoved who or ***** slapped who prior to this... appears legit straight up Murder 2... he killed a man for slapping him.

And I'll add: it is obvious which person is backing away. Look at the location of Doloff's feet in each picture. They have not moved from where they straddle the darker-beige strip of cement. Look at Keltner's feet. They have moved from the left being in front of the red strip and the right being on the line between the wider (in front) and narrower (in back) red strip, to the right being on the dark gray strip behind the red strip and the left being on the dark-beige strip behind that. Keltner had taken multiple steps back from his position when the slap occurred. And still, the pepper spray remained at his side.

 

[MCgrease08]

You are trying really, really hard to stick to this narrative. Why?

And where is even a modicum of legal justification for the use of deadly force in this situation?

I'd like to know why so many here are so willing play into it?

Just ignore him.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

And I'll add: it is obvious which person is backing away. Look at the location of Doloff's feet in each picture. They have not moved from where they straddle the darker-beige strip of cement. Look at Keltner's feet. They have moved from the left being in front of the red strip and the right being on the line between the wider (in front) and narrower (in back) red strip, to the right being on the dark gray strip behind the red strip and the left being on the dark-beige strip behind that. Keltner had taken multiple steps back from his position when the slap occurred. And still, the pepper spray remained at his side.

Yup... will also add that if Doloff had been "holding his ground" when slapped, as a someone else claimed, his weight would be on his back foot... it's not... it's on his front foot. Doloff was advancing when he got slapped.