Police Fire at Man 59 Times

[Wesley929]

Round count required = diddly squat

My opinion has no experience to back it up so take it as you will.

1 round to the head = 1 round fired = stopped threat
1 round from each officer = 6 rounds fired = stopped threat
1 magazine emptied by 6 officers = ~48 to 72 rounds fired = stopped threat
1 30 round AR mag emptied by each officeer = 180 rounds fired = stopped threat
Or the classic saying 1 shot 1 kill from a sniper rifle= 1 round fired= stopped threat

The re-occurring result to all the aforementioned made up "possible" scenarios is STOPPED THREAT. Does the round count required really matter for anything other than as a hit % figure to scrutinize?

If it took the threat a pre determined minimum amount of time to "die" (read neutralize). 5 seconds, 10 seconds, whatever, what difference does it make how many rounds the officers got off within that timeframe?

No one else was hurt only the threat. The fact that they "could" have hit someone with a stray shot doesn't really matter because they didn't.

 

[tenring]

No snipers in Tennessee?

 

[DemolitionMan]

I was never taught to shoot to wound. We fired into COM.

We were taught COM also, but we discussed the fact that wounding in a combat situation is better than killing -- because you take out the guy you wound and the guy that stops to help him. One of our teachers tried to convince us that is why the US uses a smaller rifle round! Fortunately he was also smart enough to tell us not to try to wound anyone -- neutralize the threat.

IRT to excessive force...I basically agree with those that say the officers did what they had to in order to protect themselves and others. I have to wonder if police tactics in a situation like this should be examined though. As others have pointed out, they reacted as they had been trained to do. They each recognized a threat and each acted in the same way, resulting in a high volume of shots fired.

Just thinking out loud here, but perhaps police should train to coordinate their fire in situations like this? It seems to me (based on what I know and of course I could be wrong) that they reacted more as individuals than as a team. I know that's difficult to do when you have officers that generally operate on their own, so this may not be feasible especially for smaller forces. Just my .

 

[Balinor]

58 must not have been enough and 60 was too many
you were not there dont monday morning 1/4 back
unless you have done it dont go on with well "I would have taken him out with 1 shot to the head "
just my 2 cents worth
bring on the flames

 

[22lr]

Well its like the video of the cop blasting a guy with a 12ga at about 3 feet three times. One killed the dude for sure but sometimes you just want to be sure (that and the guy just killed 3 cops and had been on the run for the better part of a day).

 

[j706]

What he said!

And what he said!!

 

[j706]

This situation highlights a few important points. First, its a fine example of the difference between what people THINK a handgun will do (regarding instantly dropping or stopping a threat) and what it WILL do. Short of a clean head shot impacting the brain or a shot to the upper spinal cord, the shot itself simply will not stop a threat immediately. Other than the psychological aspect of being shot, which is compromised or even eliminated by drugs or other issues, there is nothing about a torso shot that will cause a person to instantly stop advancing.

Even a clean heart shot with that .45 would allow voluntary muscle control for up to 15 seconds AFTER the heart exploded and stopped working. I don't know about you guys, but I can easily empty that .44 carbine in about half that time.

The second point is that when the SHTF, people revert to training and react to the situation as a whole than to the specific aspects of that situation. In short, the officers shot until the threat was neutralized (i.e.: on the ground and no longer holding the rifle). They were not assessing the situation after each shot to see if they needed another and they certainly were not coordinating shots with one another. They were not target shooting or squirrel hunting - they were stopping what their training, experience and on-the-scene observation told them was a threat.

The morale of the story IMHO is not to overestimate the effect of handgun rounds, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized and not to second guess trained officers on the scene from 425 miles away based on a single newspaper article. There is way more to this story than what was in the article - that we can be sure of.

An old saying they told us in the academy repeatedly, "What does a person do when you shoot them with a handgun?-Answer..The same thing they were doing before you shot them with a handgun". Any gun is better than no gun,but when you have the chance,bring enough gun. My rule is all calls involving a known firearm and reported violence, My issued Colt 11 1/2" M16 is coming with me. Nice,short,reliable and pin point accurate.A stationary situation? A scoped Remington LTR in .308 gives new meaning to the word accuracy.All the above = end of story if the the other person so choses.With any gun and especially with a handgun, Fire until the threat is no longer a threat. One round or 42 rounds,it don't matter. Not saying just shoot wildly. The other person is the one whom dictates all things lethal and or other wise. That is their call. Wanna get shot? Keep a gun in your hands after the police tell you to get rid of it. Complicated stuff.

 

[kevinj110]

Somehow, I don't think civilians can be sued for excessive force issues, that is generally reserved for LE.

Don't get me wrong...you gonna get sued by the family, just not for excessive force.

OK I just didnt know and it seemed like a valid question to me but I just was hoping it would be the same for police and civillians

 

[IndyGunSafety]

From the full story: Some officers emptied their magazines, reloaded and fired again, while others didn't fire all their bullets,

I wasn't there but it just seems overboard.

 

[exile]

"Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol."

 

[BloodEclipse]

"Each officer used a .45-caliber pistol."

With cop killer bullets?

 

[Indy317]

Sure, the bad guys use hi cap guns... and miss a lot, too. Street officers were not dying as a result of using revolvers then, and they would not be now. They would simply not be doing the human thing and emptying 10-16 round magazines down city streets. They'd only be firing 6 - 8 rounds, depending on the revolver, and with .357 Magnums they'd be carrying the most effective ammo to boot.

Do you have _any_ stats to back this claim up of "doing the human thing and emptying 10-16 round magazines down city streets?" The last few police shooting I can recall didn't have magazines being emptied, more like a couple of shots here and there. How wide spread of a problem is this "emptying 10-16 round magazines down city streets?"

 

[Pale Rider]

We were taught COM also, but we discussed the fact that wounding in a combat situation is better than killing -- because you take out the guy you wound and the guy that stops to help him. One of our teachers tried to convince us that is why the US uses a smaller rifle round! Fortunately he was also smart enough to tell us not to try to wound anyone -- neutralize the threat.

IRT to excessive force...I basically agree with those that say the officers did what they had to in order to protect themselves and others. I have to wonder if police tactics in a situation like this should be examined though. As others have pointed out, they reacted as they had been trained to do. They each recognized a threat and each acted in the same way, resulting in a high volume of shots fired.

Just thinking out loud here, but perhaps police should train to coordinate their fire in situations like this? It seems to me (based on what I know and of course I could be wrong) that they reacted more as individuals than as a team. I know that's difficult to do when you have officers that generally operate on their own, so this may not be feasible especially for smaller forces. Just my .

Only been taught COM. But agree that with radios and even being in close proximity to each other the officers could have coordinated a little more efficiently. However they did what they had to do or what they thought they had to do to protect themselves and others, i'm not gonna monday morning arm chair quaterback this one.

 

[SC_Shooter]

With cop killer bullets?

No, the cops only use perp killer bullets.

 

[BloodEclipse]

No, the cops only use perp killer bullets.

Winchester hollow point "Thug Eraser"

 

[homeless]

For all of your guys saying the cops screwed the pooch on this STFU we weren't there, we haven't seen the video tape.

For all of you guys who are backing the cops STFU we weren't there, we haven't seen the video tape.


The officers may or maynot have acted recklessly, they my or may not have over reacted. If he was lying on the ground, he might have been lying prone, or the neighbor could have been lying or just saying what she was told. NO ONE IN THIS SITE HAS SEEN THE TAPES.

Here is what we do know. Guy had a rifle on his porch, the cops were called, they tried to taze him and it didn't stop him. And then we know that the police felt the need to end the situation with force and opened fire. Every thing being said about his position, his intent, what was said by any party, may or may not be true. People lye and they make mistakes, even cops. The department is being tight lipped and that is reason to doubt.

The community seems a bit up in arms, so the paper printed a story. That is the job of the news paper, it seems a bit slanted but it's a news paper. Right now the TBI is doing it's job and investigating this. When the TBI report comes out then we can make the calls on the should have. If the guy was acting theatening then hell yes bbq that dude, If he wasn't well lets nail those cops to the wall. No one on here should be either condemning these cops, nor defending them until we know what happened.


I don't care how hard the job is. I don't care who they are trying to get home to. I don't care about the bull**** they deal with on a daly basis. Police need to be held to a higher standard. Their job is to KNOW and Enforce our laws, when they screw up burn them at the stake. I agree that they don't get paid enough, but they took the job, so I don't feel bad. I don't think that cops get enough recocnition for what they do, but pinning on a badge doesn't make them a hero.


One last thought, every one of us in monday morning quarter backing here. We weren't there we don't know.

 

[agentl074]

Under stress fire, you do not count your rounds—you merely shoot until the threat is neutralized. Anyone who has fired a semi auto knows how fast one can go through a magazine.

 

[IGETDRUNK]

She must have been in a very deep thaought process
to only remember firing 2 shots

 

[alfahornet]

So, they hit the guy 59 time, 43 before he died. I'd say it's impressive shooting that they didn't miss him. Or am I missing something.

 

[Denny347]

I don't care how hard the job is. I don't care who they are trying to get home to. I don't care about the bull**** they deal with on a daily basis. Police need to be held to a higher standard. Their job is to KNOW and Enforce our laws, when they screw up burn them at the stake. I agree that they don't get paid enough, but they took the job, so I don't feel bad.

And we appreciate your support .

but pinning on a badge doesn't make them a hero.

YES IT DOES.
Hmm, well, my brothers/sisters I work with are my heros. My friend Jason was shot in the brain last year...he's my hero. To my fallen brothers/sister...they are my hero's. So, yeah, they wear the bag they get the hero tag, although MOST would not consider themselves as such. I know Jason does not feel that way.