Police Fire at Man 59 Times

[hookedonjeep]

After that they go to plaid.

May the Schwartz be with you......

 

[Dryden]

So now my five shot 642 AND my 12 shot M&P 9mm compact ain't gonna cut it. Great! I've got to start saving for that 9 shot Remington slug gun and strap it to my leg for concealment. After that, I'm just gonna start pulling pins and chucking frags.

 

[Yamaha]

screw frags, jump to claymores and c4.....lol

 

[spectrumbf]

He should not have pointed a weapon at officers. They were just protecting themselves.

 

[Panama]

Locally there was a father who had taken his girl. They found him at a local drive in restaurant, filling him with bullets as his little girl sat next to him. It was by the grace of God she wasn't injured or worse.

I wasn't there for that one, but I was there for the incident with the girl. It was a bad call. I thought the girl was dead.

Not trying to jack the thread but............

I am just curious, when and where did this take place?
There aren't that many drive-in restaurants in the BIG city of Bedford.
And I don't recall this incident, but then I am getting old.

 

[busted1200]

Wow, RCB you sound too liberal to even own a gun. How does this give LEO a bad rap?? This guy was a threat whether or not you or the family wants to believe it. Nobody was hurt besides the bad guy and all the cops got to go home at the end of their shift, which is all that matters. Sounds to me like they did an excellent job! The Police are always damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Neither you or I was there, but how dare you criticize the police. So they missed their target lets average it to 33%. That's damn good shooting for a real life stress involved shooting. Most of the time Police involved shootings only average around 30-40% of hits. It doesn't matter how many times the bad guy is shot as long as the threat is stopped. I'm surprised you didn't ask why they just didn't shoot the rifle out of his hand.


The media sure isn't biased are they. Article should have been titled "Officers protect entire community from deranged man wielding rifle"

“The hit ratio of police officers involved in gunfights varies. The U.S.
Department of Justice study ‘In the Line of Fire’ quotes 41%.

Here's an interesting research article. It shows a few agencies and their documented officer involved shootings.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

 

[Bill of Rights]

May the Schwartz be with you......

Ludicrous speed! GO!



Blessings,
Bill

 

[RCB]

I remember that incident vividly, and the ensuing controversy. It was truely a miracle that girl wasn't harmed. That said, I'm not going to question for one minute the decisions those officers made, nor those in this case.

There may be some posting in this thread that have actually faced fire and threat from someone that is armed. I for one have not, so I can't say how I'll react and how many shots I'd fire if in that situation.

I do know that I would likely err on the side of neutralizing the threat, rather than leaving the door open for the threat to neutralize me.

This is one of the main reasons I still advocate police sniper teams. Can't be used in every situation but in urban environments I think it offers a lot of benefits.

 

[Bill of Rights]

... How does this give LEO a bad rap?? This guy was a threat whether or not you or the family wants to believe it. Nobody was hurt besides the bad guy and all the cops got to go home at the end of their shift, which is all that matters. Sounds to me like they did an excellent job!...

With respect, dropping the BG and all the cops going home at the end of the shift are both important points, but far from "all that matters". I do agree with you that the LEOs did an excellent job of preventing injury, recognizing that a portion of their doing so is due to training and experience and expertise, and another part of it is sheer luck. The simple fact is that those 16(?) rounds that did not hit their target didn't just vaporize; they did hit something, whether it was a building, a wall, or the ground a mile and a half away, and that is a major concern. We all know the Four Rules by heart:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Do not point a gun at anything you do not want holes in.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Know your target and your backstop.

The problem with those 16 rounds is found in Rule 4, because they very easily could have hit an innocent... unless of course, you subscribe to the omelette theory.

Once again, I do not fault the officers for stopping the threat, and I've not been in a live-fire situation to give me the right to judge. My point is solely that more matters than just the stopping of the threat and the cops all going home. That's the only point with which I'm taking issue.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[RCB]

Not trying to jack the thread but............

I am just curious, when and where did this take place?
There aren't that many drive-in restaurants in the BIG city of Bedford.
And I don't recall this incident, but then I am getting old.

This happened when I still lived in Seymour, happened at Rockford Place. And for the record I live a good ways outside of any towns, including Bedford, its just used as a reference point

 

[PointBlank]

No, don't commit suicide! Drop him!

59 shots, really? That's absurd. That means that each officer averaged over 9 shots. Even if he was threatening the officers, that many shots are a danger to everyone. Most of the time they are firing so fast that he didn't have time to fall, but they should be taught better fire control then that.

He was a danger to others, but 16 errant bullets weren't?

It's that sort of thing that gives LEO's a bad rep.

 

[concrete dog]

i can see the point about stopping the threat but im not sure the use of 40+ that hit the threat might have been a little much but i was not there so just my 2 cents

 

[busted1200]

4. Know your target and your backstop.
The problem with those 16 rounds is found in Rule 4, because they very easily could have hit an innocent... unless of course, you subscribe to the omelette theory.

Maybe they did know their backstop? Ever think of that? Maybe they knew the house was empty and that their rounds would not be in danger of hitting anyone else.
It would be nice to think that everytime a police officer fires a shot it hits the intended target, but this will never happen no matter how much training one has. That is just total TV Fantasy land thinking. No matter how good of a bulls eye shooter you are, you just can't replicate the fact that most of the time both the officer and offender are moving, plus the stress and commotion of the event.

 

[bass pro]

I agree with Yamaha, you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat!

 

[busted1200]

i can see the point about stopping the threat but im not sure the use of 40+ that hit the threat might have been a little much but i was not there so just my 2 cents

You've got to put yourself in the officers shoes. If just one officer had fired 10 shots, that might not sound so bad. There were 6 officers present and 59 shots fired. You have to think for yourself in that given situation and not rely on the officer next to you to take care of business.

 

[SC_Shooter]

This situation highlights a few important points. First, its a fine example of the difference between what people THINK a handgun will do (regarding instantly dropping or stopping a threat) and what it WILL do. Short of a clean head shot impacting the brain or a shot to the upper spinal cord, the shot itself simply will not stop a threat immediately. Other than the psychological aspect of being shot, which is compromised or even eliminated by drugs or other issues, there is nothing about a torso shot that will cause a person to instantly stop advancing.

Even a clean heart shot with that .45 would allow voluntary muscle control for up to 15 seconds AFTER the heart exploded and stopped working. I don't know about you guys, but I can easily empty that .44 carbine in about half that time.

The second point is that when the SHTF, people revert to training and react to the situation as a whole than to the specific aspects of that situation. In short, the officers shot until the threat was neutralized (i.e.: on the ground and no longer holding the rifle). They were not assessing the situation after each shot to see if they needed another and they certainly were not coordinating shots with one another. They were not target shooting or squirrel hunting - they were stopping what their training, experience and on-the-scene observation told them was a threat.

The morale of the story IMHO is not to overestimate the effect of handgun rounds, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized and not to second guess trained officers on the scene from 425 miles away based on a single newspaper article. There is way more to this story than what was in the article - that we can be sure of.

 

[Sasquatchhunter]

I think the key thing to remember is that this was just an awful all around situation. The suspect obviously needed help. The LEO's on scene were put in a terrible, volitile situation. I know if I was there I'd be nervous as heck.Saying that, I can't justify 59 shots. I wonder how far away they were? I'd be hard to look that guys family in the eye knowing you each pumped 14 rounds into their family member. Seems pretty rediculous.

 

[Sasquatchhunter]

There is way more to this story than what was in the article - that we can be sure of.[/quote]

very good point. Im sure youre right too

 

[1032JBT]

I will not go into specifics about this and am only putting this here to open some eyes but doubt that it will.

I have fired my pistol while someone was trying to kill me with a 2000+ pound weapon. I fired 5 rounds in less than a second and I felt as if I was shooting slow. If you average out the (9) rounds fired in this case, I would say they fired those rounds in 1-2 seconds, which when someone is trying to kill you is like a snap of the fingers. In my incident, I was alone and I bet you every one of those officers felt as if they were the only one there......as they should have. No matter how much training the guy/girl next to has, you can not depend on them to protect you, you must do this yourself. Also I'm pretty positive in saying this........none of those officers heard their own weapon go off let alone the other officers weapons, again leaving them to feel as if they were alone.



I guess the bottom line is, if you have never been in those shoes then don't for a second comment on what you think they should or could have done. For those that hav been there........they wont Monday morning quarterback because they have been there and know better.

 

[SC_Shooter]

I will not go into specifics about this and am only putting this here to open some eyes but doubt that it will.

I have fired my pistol while someone was trying to kill me with a 2000+ pound weapon. I fired 5 rounds in less than a second and I felt as if I was shooting slow. If you average out the (9) rounds fired in this case, I would say they fired those rounds in 1-2 seconds, which when someone is trying to kill you is like a snap of the fingers. In my incident, I was alone and I bet you every one of those officers felt as if they were the only one there......as they should have. No matter how much training the guy/girl next to has, you can not depend on them to protect you, you must do this yourself. Also I'm pretty positive in saying this........none of those officers heard their own weapon go off let alone the other officers weapons, again leaving them to feel as if they were alone.



I guess the bottom line is, if you have never been in those shoes then don't for a second comment on what you think they should or could have done. For those that hav been there........they wont Monday morning quarterback because they have been there and know better.

Well put.