Playing Hero: Where do you draw the line.

[JetGirl]

Other chunkymonkey soccermom types.

Not really... most I know are the type that freak out if jr makes a Lego gun or bites his PBJ into the shape of a gun. Not one would ever guess that while I held precious baby Sally, I was packin' heat for the duration.
I don't think I'd get invited back to any Home Interior or PartyLite parties if they knew.

 

[MyGlockRocks19]

As far as I'm concerned, my gun is to cover me and mine in a bad situation. It doesn't immediately deputize me in a bad situation, and I'd likely wait until either I was personally in danger, or someone close to me was threatened.

Then again, I say that now, but I think it would be awfully hard for me to ignore someone else's life in danger if actually put in that situation.

 

[slamer283]

if it was i, i would pull my weapon just for safety reason's. just incase yours self gets in danger. unles that gun is pointed at you, dont make any sudden movements showing you have a weapon

 

[JetGirl]

if it was i, i would pull my weapon just for safety reason's. just incase yours self gets in danger. unles that gun is pointed at you, dont make any sudden movements showing you have a weapon

That just outed you to the accomplice behind you...the one you never saw.

 

[techres]

I have no intentions of waiting to die, and then dying with my firearm still in the holster unless I am waiting for a better moment to draw. If they are not looking at me and I am reasonably sure there is no accomplice, then I will at the very least back off and draw from concealment.

Being alone gives me more ability to maneuver as such, but being with my kids would cause me to be more proactive.

There have been cases, even in Indy, of CCW's drawing on BG's and ending situations. Occationally they lose, but more often they win.

Who knows and each situation is different, but if I was not being watched and I had the ability to draw I would. If for no other reason than I plan to shoot the SOB before he can turn towards me!

 

[cosermann]

Here's a link to an article on "The Dangers of Intervention" by Evan Marshall. Good perspective from a "been there, done that" sort of person. It's not the first time I've heard similar sentiments expressed by former law enforcement folks, btw. Good advice I think.:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

 

[JosephR]

What you read was BS, plain and simple.

Remember "serious bodily injury" is a justifiable reason to use lethal force too.

I read somewhere (I would have to look it up) that if say a woman was being mugged, and you shot the assailant, killing him, that in court if the woman had testified that she did not feel her life was in danger, you would be facing criminal charges. It said you have to put yourself in the person's shoes who you are defending.

I personally would think it to be pretty messed up if you stopped a woman from being raped and she testified against you but in this world it is a very real possibility. Not to mention the oppourtunity the woman now has to sue you for traumatization.

But back on subject, I feel that I would have to react as well. In that particular scenario it may have been the end of me, but his partner in crime would have remembered that it may not be wise to hold up a gas station again.

 

[JosephR]

Rep points for ya

That's not entirely correct.

That situation happens quite a bit, even with trained people.

Ever hear of the OODA Loop/Cycle?

The BG will have to process his OODA before he can pull the trigger after he has a visual of what you are doing. That takes time. You on the other hand have already processed the information and, unknown to the BG, have already made the decision to draw & fire. Your action just has to be faster than his OODA cycle time.

If he has already made the decision to shoot before you begin your draw then no, you can't win.

That is also why you should not hesitate when you decide to use your gun in a defensive situation. If you are not 100% committed to pulling the trigger when the gun comes out, you have a good chance of losing the fight. You have processed your OODA & either decided to only pull the gun to, hopefully, scare the BG away or you hesitate in any other way. Now you have to process another OODA based on his reaction to your action. What ever action he takes you are now at a disadvantage.

 

[88E30M50]

Funny that the OODA Loop was mentioned. I was taught (now I teach) my young military guys to use their situational awareness (SA) at all times. For those not familiar with Col Boyd here's a quick rundown OODA Loop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would have done nothing until the scenario developed.

Nice to see Boyd getting his due. One of the best minds this country produced.

 

[Phil502]

Here's a link to an article on "The Dangers of Intervention" by Evan Marshall. Good perspective from a "been there, done that" sort of person. It's not the first time I've heard similar sentiments expressed by former law enforcement folks, btw. Good advice I think.:

Commentary by Evan Marshall

That is a damn good article.

I got my LTCH about 1 month ago and in that time my S&W M&P 9mm started failing so it's going back to S&W today, so I did not carry yet. Anyway I have been thinking a lot about how to act or don't act with a handgun with me. I mean I am not trained to know like an policeman how to evaluate the situation and how to attack the bad guy without endangering anyone else. I mean some situations are pretty obvious say just you and the bg or you and someone else and the bg, but throw a big more confusing situation out there you better be sure you got a good grasp on whats happening. Probably backing up a little in the situation described and making sure you get the full picture is a good idea, it could get someone killed too it's a tough call but just drawing and firing is probably not the thing I'm going to do.

Having said that I once jumped out of my car when I saw some scumbag shaking an old womans shopping cart a half block away from the store. He just backed away when I yelled at him and advanced toward him and got moving pretty quick as I approached, the lady thanked me and said he wanted her money. It just pissed me off that some punk was going to bully that defenseless woman.

I think there is probably a few books out there about your mindset when carrying a gun as a civilian.

 

[Sailor]

Having said that I once jumped out of my car when I saw some scumbag shaking an old womans shopping cart a half block away from the store. He just backed away when I yelled at him and advanced toward him and got moving pretty quick as I approached, the lady thanked me and said he wanted her money. It just pissed me off that some punk was going to bully that defenseless woman.

I would have driven my family home first, made sure they were safe then driven back, jumped out and yelled.

 

[Scout]

In the situation by the OP, consider that you'd walked into the gas station and surveyed it. "What if someone comes in here with a gun? What would I do? Where would I go?" You decide that you're likely to pull your gun and react to the threat, if the threat comes to you. You find that your best bet is to the back of the store, where they've got some heavier cover. You calculate that the place isn't likely to hold more than 5 people at a time, excluding the clerk, and it's unlikely that more than one person would hold up the store. You figure that you can get to the back relatively unnoticed if you pretend to be just another scared patron.

Now it happens, you're in line. He pulls the gun, and you immediately drop back being very convincing, and you get to the back of the store all huddled and miserable until you get to the cover you want. You noticed there are two folks with weapons. Now's when you can start having things fall into your predetermined rhythm. You're concealed, you pull your pistol, and know your best bet is to take out the guy who's not busy with the clerk, he's likely to be the one looking for you. Take him out, and you know you're in control to where you've figured things.

I was going to post something similar, but since you pretty much said it I'll just add this. In this day and age, it's not uncommon for the clerk to have a firearm of his own behind the counter. While the OP just stood in line and did nothing, he could have become a casualty.

 

[esrice]

Anyway I have been thinking a lot about how to act or don't act with a handgun with me. I mean I am not trained to know like an policeman how to evaluate the situation and how to attack the bad guy without endangering anyone else.

Let me take this opportunity to point out that INGO has a great resource in our Tactics and Training Forum found here: Tactics and Training - INGunOwners

I would recommend, as you are a new LTCH recipient, in taking a good defensive handgun class as soon as possible. Also check out the INGO Tour (link in my signature) where Pami has gathered all the training companies that are somewhat close to home.

Training with a reputable group will build your skills, mindset, and confidence as you carry your gun with you.

 

[SigSense]

I would recommend, as you are a new LTCH recipient, in taking a good defensive handgun class as soon as possible. Also check out the INGO Tour (link in my signature) where Pami has gathered all the training companies that are somewhat close to home.

Training with a reputable group will build your skills, mindset, and confidence as you carry your gun with you.

This is a PRICELESS recommendation! I thought I could handle both my rifles and handguns UNTIL I attended a few shooting schools, where I was stressed by the instructors and FORCED to use my weapons under duress (like in real life).

 

[USMC_0311]

I have intervend several times in several different situations. The one that scares me the most is wife and husband fighting. I am going to stop him from beating her thats the bottom line. This has backfired on me once and I had to punch the wife too. Now that really sucked but what else was I going to do when she picked up a kitchen knife. I want to do the right thing not neccessarily the legal thing. If you are doing it in front of me then you have made it my business. In the OP's senerio I would hope that I had enough situtional awareness to avoid be shot in the back but in realality a well planned robbery with multiple badguys vrs my gut instinct I probably would have been shot. It is threads like these were we can learn with out the experience.

I owe another post in another thread. I get it now esrice, just give me a little time.

 

[JLB768]

Unless myself, or my family, is in immediate danger, I stay out of it. It is not my responsibility, to protect complete strangers. You have to ask yourself...am I willing to gamble my freedom, home, savings accounts, etc, for a complete stranger? I am not. Some may say that's cowardice, cold, or selfish, but I have a wife, and three kids, and to put them on the line financially, to risk losing a home they share with me, is not something I am willing to do for some stranger off the street.

 

[Sailor]

Unless myself, or my family, is in immediate danger, I stay out of it. It is not my responsibility, to protect complete strangers. You have to ask yourself...am I willing to gamble my freedom, home, savings accounts, etc, for a complete stranger? I am not. Some may say that's cowardice, cold, or selfish, but I have a wife, and three kids, and to put them on the line financially, to risk losing a home they share with me, is not something I am willing to do for some stranger off the street.

It has nothing to do with "responsibility" Its a moral duty to me.

The bystanders of this video didn't feel the need to protect this stranger in need.

*** warning NWS violent content Man in Holland Brutally Stabs his Girlfriend Repeatedly - NothingToxic.com

 

[JLB768]

It has nothing to do with "responsibility" Its a moral duty to me.

The bystanders of this video didn't feel the need to protect this stranger in need.

*** warning NWS violent content Man in Holland Brutally Stabs his Girlfriend Repeatedly - NothingToxic.com

He is armed with a knife, is already repeatedly stabbing her, leaving himself wide open for a shot, and I am armed with a firearm...That's obviously entirely different, and in a situation such as that, who wouldn't act if armed? But standing in line at the quickymart, and someone is demanding cash, I am not getting involved...

 

[henktermaat]

It has nothing to do with "responsibility" Its a moral duty to me.

The bystanders of this video didn't feel the need to protect this stranger in need.

*** warning NWS violent content Man in Holland Brutally Stabs his Girlfriend Repeatedly - NothingToxic.com

That's a hard, sad video to watch- and it cannot be unwatched.

 

[JLB768]

That's a hard, sad video to watch- and it cannot be unwatched.

I agree, it was disturbing to watch. But after watching, I had to ask myself, what would make someone do something like that? Brings me back to the strangers thing again, while highly unlikely, for all we know, she could have murdered his children, because he was leaving her, and he went nuts on her. You just never know, and are thrusting yourself into unknown territory if you do act. Again, makes me think, take care of me, and my family, stay out of it otherwise.