Playing Hero: Where do you draw the line.

[jeremy]

There is a very fine line between heroic and stupid. I try never to get to close to it if I can avoid it. Those that cross over to the stupid side will eventually Darwin'd.
It took me several years to also figure out that "looking for adventure" is just a better way of saying "hold my beer and watch this".

 

[BloodEclipse]

My nature is to help those who need it. In the OPs scenario, I would like to think I would have put space between myself and the thug. Do a quick look around before pulling out my gun. My gun would come out and not my cell phone because I can call the police later. They won't get there till it's over anyway. While rushing in could end badly so could just being a witness if the gun went off accidental and the clerk was shot. Then you are a BIG liability and what is the difference between shooting 1 or 2 people? Doing nothing may have worked in the given case but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.

 

[finity]

Remember you'll never draw the gun out of the holster faster than he can pull the trigger.

That's not entirely correct.

That situation happens quite a bit, even with trained people.

Ever hear of the OODA Loop/Cycle?

The BG will have to process his OODA before he can pull the trigger after he has a visual of what you are doing. That takes time. You on the other hand have already processed the information and, unknown to the BG, have already made the decision to draw & fire. Your action just has to be faster than his OODA cycle time.

If he has already made the decision to shoot before you begin your draw then no, you can't win.

That is also why you should not hesitate when you decide to use your gun in a defensive situation. If you are not 100% committed to pulling the trigger when the gun comes out, you have a good chance of losing the fight. You have processed your OODA & either decided to only pull the gun to, hopefully, scare the BG away or you hesitate in any other way. Now you have to process another OODA based on his reaction to your action. What ever action he takes you are now at a disadvantage.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Man... #1, I hope this NEVER happens to me. Ever.

#2, if it does...i have no idea what I'd do. To me, it's all situational and relative.

In sticking with the situation in the OP, I'd probably not have been able to safely do anything. Best thing for ME to do at that point is to be sure that I (nor family?) become DRT. A gun in hand is always faster than a gun in holster.

-J-

I would have my hand on my gun and my safety off with my finger on the trigger because I keep my gun in my pocket. Especially in the winter, I might even already have it pointed at him waiting to see if he takes the money and runs or starts shooting people.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I will defend anyone, anytime with everything I have, period.

I'm going to have a pretty frigging good idea of what is or is not going on before I start shooting people, especially if no one else is shooting yet.

I'd rather be saying this at a trial, "I didn't know he was a cop, he was shooting, they were shooting, every one was screaming I didn't know what to do and then he turned to me and started to point his gun, I didn't know who he was or what he was doing next, I shot at him until he quit pointing his gun at me. I didn't know if he was dead or not but by then every one else had run and no one was shooting any more, then the cops showed up."

Alternative scenario, "That guy was pointing a gun at the guy in front of him and they were screaming give me the money. So I put a bullet through the back of his head. I didn't know he was a cop and it was the guy in front of him robbing the place. The cashier was screaming, people behind me were screaming and these to guys had guns."

 

[SigSense]

Funny that the OODA Loop was mentioned. I was taught (now I teach) my young military guys to use their situational awareness (SA) at all times. For those not familiar with Col Boyd here's a quick rundown OODA Loop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would have done nothing until the scenario developed.

 

[Sailor]

I would have to act.

The mere fact that that piece of SH!T is still out there that shot that pregnant woman would force me to act. Who knows what they will do? If they shoot the guy in the face, I will not have that on my conscience.

Amen.

I would have hoped for more answers like this.

 

[singlestacksig]

every situation is different..
in this case the guy failed to be aware of what was around himself..

if i was in a situation like that i would have know someone was behind me..
and when robber pulled a gun i would have MOVED away.. even with out drawing my gun I would have made distance and looked around..
bad guy #2 would probably just thought it is someone running scared..

after moving away , i would look the situation over...
remeber , being a dead hero is no fun...

also something else to think about..
a large number of stop & rob holdups are a set up by the clerk...
the robber & clerk know each other...

 

[Mr.Hoppes]

Reminded me of this old television show scene

Season 2 episode titled 3.3 seconds
YouTube - Amy Gets Shot



Too many factors to make a call on the OP situation. The mindset is what I respond to. I am generally a proactive personality. I also believe that situations are different. No two situations are the same. There are similarities, but the people involved make it unique. Their experiences and reaction to situations will differ. I am also of the opinion that a gun need not be the first weapon of choice even if one is readily available. I know this is a gun forum and there by most situations are based on what to do having a gun in the situation. I think a better solution is to be aware of what is the best thing to do , If anything, based on all weapons available. Most people go through life unaware of the very common items that are just about everywhere that can be used as a weapon. But that is fodder for another thread or another forum.

Having been a store clerk when I was just out of high school, we were taught, 25 yrs ago, not to have more than $50 cash in the register and to just give it up, no heroics. That store had visiting manager rotation that did random testing of any or all stores in the area to check the drawer to see how much was in the drawer to avoid being robbed for more than $50. Back then it was a deterrent because other places more easily robbed had more cash.

 

[Dogman]

:rolleyesedit:I think I remember reading (probably Mas Ayoob) that unless it is directly directed AT me, it's better to be a good witness, rather than something else. So I would keep it where it was unless directed at me, then we could dance.

Have to agreed, now that I've been retired for a while, but I would most likely unholster and have it out of sight just in case. There's no way to be fast enough to unholster and shoot if the POS BG turns and point his gun at you.

JMHO

 

[sivins]

Sounds like in any situation, theres not going to be much time to think about what to do. Im not sure what i would do. If i was alone, protect myself and anyone who was def. not part of the situation. If i had lets say my girl with me, id shoot anyone who pointed a gun in her direction. but im sure anyone else in that sit. would do the same

 

[rhino]

That's where I had the single biggest "tactical eye-opener" in any training course I've ever taken. Intervening in someone else's fight and getting center-punched by the person I presumed to be the "victim" reinforced the notion of "not being a hero" more than any lecture ever could.

I had a little different experience a couple of years ago. In the scenario, I was the one who was the focus of the aggressor's attention. When he started to advance at me (going behind a counter in a mock pack and ship store), one of the other participants who was supposed to just be a bystander tackled the guy as he was drawing his gun (no one knew who else was armed or what their role was beforehand). He ended the situation before it got to the point of exchanging fire.

No one expected him to do it (even the guy himself!), it just happened in the heat of the moment. At the time it happened when I was into the scenario and feeling the reality of it, I was damn glad the guy helped. I wouldn't demean his actions by labeling it "playing hero," as I think he just acted on gut instinct to protect and help.

In the debriefing and analysis afterward when everyone had time to calm down, I could see the potential problems he could have created for himself that way, but I was still glad he did it.

 

[KPierce]

Tough question. I would hope that I would react appropriately and rapidly. But every situation is different. I do however try to remain aware of what the people around me are doing when I am out and about, but I can not give any concrete answer until I am faced with a situation. Even should I survive and come out on top(IE justified, no charges), my opinion could only really be related that that specific situation.

 

[deadsquirrel]

what does the law say about this? i mean say this same situation happened what can you do as a citizen carrying a gun when a robbery happens?

 

[Rookie]

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony" defined
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.

 

[Archaic_Entity]

Something very similar to the OODA loop that I've found very useful, and I'm not really sure where the concept came about, but I've always called it 'war gaming', or something to that extent.

Anyway, it pretty much is taking into account your surrounding and deciding what you would do in that situation (or a similar one) before it happens, or has a chance to happen.

For example, I did this largely in high school (where I'd be passing the time to get through a boring class or so), and planned what I'd do if some psycho kid would come in guns blazing, or pull a gun out. It could get rather elaborate, kind of like pre-thinking in chess. I'd consider where I was in the classroom, consider where they could come from, where they would likely go, what they would likely do. And eventually I had the whole scenario thought out.

Of course, you could argue that the plan only works if everything falls into place, but it's not about making things fall into place. It's about predicting what to do when something hits where you know what's going on in your mental situation.

In the situation by the OP, consider that you'd walked into the gas station and surveyed it. "What if someone comes in here with a gun? What would I do? Where would I go?" You decide that you're likely to pull your gun and react to the threat, if the threat comes to you. You find that your best bet is to the back of the store, where they've got some heavier cover. You calculate that the place isn't likely to hold more than 5 people at a time, excluding the clerk, and it's unlikely that more than one person would hold up the store. You figure that you can get to the back relatively unnoticed if you pretend to be just another scared patron.

Now it happens, you're in line. He pulls the gun, and you immediately drop back being very convincing, and you get to the back of the store all huddled and miserable until you get to the cover you want. You noticed there are two folks with weapons. Now's when you can start having things fall into your predetermined rhythm. You're concealed, you pull your pistol, and know your best bet is to take out the guy who's not busy with the clerk, he's likely to be the one looking for you. Take him out, and you know you're in control to where you've figured things.

Or something to that extent. I can't really say that's how it works, unless I'm in the situation. I still do it when I've got the spare time. It's always interesting to see what scenarios you come up with.

Sorry that was so long, heh. Just felt like it would be a semi-interesting concept to think about.

 

[paddling_man]

Use your best judgment. Like every situation, it would have to be evaluated.

I can imagine situations where "doing nothing" is keeping a situation from escalating. Others, that "doing nothing" could leave scars from which one would never recover.

Occasionally history condemns those who did something with good intentions but ill results. More often, history judges harshly those who stood by while others were victimized.

Hard to say and for each man to answer in his own heart when the situation develops.

"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
courage to change the things we can,
and wisdom to know the difference."

 

[JetGirl]

Wow. I'm a cold-hearted beyotch. If something is going down that doesn't involve/affect me or mine: take the money/shock the monkey/whatever.
However, if I (or my family/friend) is the intended target without any doubt...that's a different story.
If that happens (and I'd hope it never would), I figure I have two elements of surprise in my favor.
#1- concealed means concealed.
#2- who expects a chunkymonkey soccermom type to be packing?

 

[Dogman]

Wow. I'm a cold-hearted beyotch. If something is going down that doesn't involve/affect me or mine: take the money/shock the monkey/whatever.
However, if I (or my family/friend) is the intended target without any doubt...that's a different story.
If that happens (and I'd hope it never would), I figure I have two elements of surprise in my favor.
#1- concealed means concealed.
#2- who expects a chunkymonkey soccermom type to be packing?

Other chunkymonkey soccermom types.

 

[bobn911]

BloodEclispe and any one else, While this deal is going on, CALL 911. That will open the line so the operator can hear what is going on and hopefully get the cops on the way sooner. After the threat is over, pick up the phone and let them know the details. That's my . Later, Bob