Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[thompal]

He says, "With a dot I can see what's below the point of aim" as compared to having the slide and front sight blocking a lot of your view."

Wow. Never thougth of that. If engaging moving targets (and/or multiple assailants) I want to see as much as possible out front. Yeah, the dot is the better option.

If you shoot with both eyes open, even that advantage is gone.

 

[gregkl]

Keep in mind that the slide is what's modified to accept a red dot. If for some reason in the future you are unable to get a replacement dot with the same footprint(very highly unlikely), you can always just buy a new slide and boom, you are back to factory configuration ready for your next mod!

 

[92FSTech]

Oh I think I get it. There’s actually no such thing as “not co-witnessed”, but you can drop the irons down so at your normal presentation they are out of your way.
I think. Would be happy to be educated otherwise.

Yep, exactly. Unless you for some odd reason want a different point of impact for your irons and your red dot and zero as such, they will cowitness when the iron sights are aligned.

 

[ECS686]

Oh I think I get it. There’s actually no such thing as “not co-witnessed”, but you can drop the irons down so at your normal presentation they are out of your way.
I think. Would be happy to be educated otherwise.

There’s a couple thought processes on backup irons

Some folks just love Suppressor Height Sights but Why? As Dave Spaulding said, too much and it defeats the purpose to have half or more of your screen covered. One of the qualities of the RDS is being able to see most of your bad guy and what they are doing.

Then there are some guns (Walther PDP for example the RDS sits so low in the slide most makes (Aimpoint Acro P1 and P2 specifically) you can use the stock standard sights.

Many claim having sights in the bottom 1/3 of the glass is ideal. Others like Dave mentions another consideration is you are also more likely to have the front of the screen covered, smudged or smashed which back up irons do you no good if you can’t see through the screen.

In the rare case your unit just fails there’s using the back of the slide plate as reference or angle of the slide to aim for those up close plan B needs. Sort of the old school Jim Cirilo style.

But as long as there is a dot with both eyes open you will still be able to aim it. (If you don’t believe it put tape on the front of your RDS and shoot with both eyes open)

 

[2AOK]

Ok, I wasn't going to go here...but @mmpsteve tempted me into it! Here's my first red dot-compatible 9mm. Shadow Systems MR920 Elite.

Shadow Systems – Home of the best shooting, no-compromise family of pistols — the MR920, XR920, CR920, DR920.

shadowsystemscorp.com

They are a good value, if you consider all that you're getting. The red dot mounting system is the best in the industry, imo. Give 'em a look!

View attachment 218107

YOW! Space gun.
I visited the Shadow Systems website per your link. I love the build-your-own-version approach and the company seems dedicated to their products and customers.

I have to rule this brand out for now because 1) I want to stay with products that are widely available for the sake of parts, repairs, holster options and general information availability. And 2) the price is high for me. Saw Palmetto sells the standard compact 4" pistol for $799. $300 above the going rate for the comparable M&P.

I get the concept though, and I understand mmpsteve's and your interest in these guns. Does firing a gun actually make a sound in outer space?
Blam! Blam! Blam! =D

 

[hammerd13]

YOW! Space gun.
I visited the Shadow Systems website per your link. I love the build-your-own-version approach and the company seems dedicated to their products and customers.

I have to rule this brand out for now because 1) I want to stay with products that are widely available for the sake of parts, repairs, holster options and general information availability. And 2) the price is high for me. Saw Palmetto sells the standard compact 4" pistol for $799. $300 above the going rate for the comparable M&P.

I get the concept though, and I understand mmpsteve's and your interest in these guns. Does firing a gun actually make a sound in outer space?
Blam! Blam! Blam! =D

I'm heavily invested in the Glock platform at this point, so the Shadow Systems option was an easy choice. It uses Glock mags and fits in Glock holsters. It's everything I like about Glock...only better in almost every way.

It also maintains the same grip angle, although that is adjustable with Shadow Systems backstrap inserts. I've learned to draw/present properly with the Glock grip angle, so maintaining this was important to me.

...and next range trip I take to outer space, I'll make a note of any presence/absence of noise! I'm guessing that, due to the vacuum, I won't hear much. Stay tuned.

 

[2AOK]

1. The P320 isn't any more expensive than a Glock or M&P. I've seen the certified pre-owned models go for less than $400. Yes, you can spend $1000+ on the blinged out variants that IMO are mostly marketing fluff, but the basic guns are very affordable.

2. Not at all. It's very well balanced (there is some material removed from the inside of the slide to lighten it in places that the compact/carry models are not), and the recoil impulse is even softer than my compact/carry models.

3. I've not noticed any muzzle flip, but then again I've been shooting Sigs for years. The internet complains about it a lot...it's not something I've noticed in actual practice.


Not my choice...you have to take what they give you. If I had my druthers, I'd have something else, but I have to admit it's not given me any reason to complain. The only issue we've had with them is the threads on some of the adjustment covers stripping out, and Sig sent me a whole pile of new ones. My old patrol rifle, which was personally owned, wore an Aimpoint PRO, which IMO is a better optic, despite being bigger and heavier.

This is true. Co-witness of handgun optics is kind of hard to explain. When shooting, you don't need to line up the iron sights with the dot, because the dot is parralax free and can be used to aim from any part of the window. You actually don't want to line them all up, as it's slower and defeats the purpose of having the dot in the first place. However, if your irons are aligned with your eye and the target, the dot will appear in line with them as well.

It's a difficult concept to wrap the mind around, and I didn't really get it until I started using one, but it makes sense when you actually have the gun in your hand. The iron sights are still going to be aligned with the target if the dot is on the target, but they may not be in line with your eye.

Thanks for all the dope on the Sig 320 pistols. When I find an opportunity to shoot one, I'll give it serious consideration. I just don't like the "idea" of that high bore axis. The Sootch00 review I mentioned earlier (and linked to) says in three separate instances that the recoil is "not as bad as you'd expect" considering the high bore axis. Not too convincing. I'm not buying anything until prices come down, so there's still time for Sig to supplant S&W. I much appreciate the insights.

As for red dot cowitnessing, I think I understand your point, though I'll have to SEE it to fully get it. In the meantime, I found this pair of links to explanations at AT3Tactical.com
1. THE SHORT ANSWER
2. THE LONG VERSION
The discussions there pertain mostly to rifle sights, but can relate to pistol. Based on what I'm learning, Lower 1/3 seems preferrable on both rifle and pistol. MCgrease08 posted a link to a Sage Dynmamics video that mentioned how iron sights alone cause the pistol slide to take up a large portion of your field of view. So it makes sense for me to pop that red dot up above the iron sights and slide.

As for your use of the Sig Romeo 5 and my own, I don't see a reason not to rely on it for serious business. I don't like the weirdness that happens when a primary light source (interior lighting or the sun) gets behind me, but I'm assuming all red dots exhibit that aberration due to technical and internal construction limitations...

 

[ditcherman]

.

But as long as there is a dot with both eyes open you will still be able to aim it. (If you don’t believe it put tape on the front of your RDS and shoot with both eyes open)

Yep, see my post 154 a page back for the Binden principle at work.

My p320 AXG shipped with regular low sights, x5 and legion both have suppressor ht sights, I don’t see any difference and nothing registers in my brain when I go from one to another. I’m paying no attention to the irons at all.

 

[Born2vette]

I'm not buying anything until prices come down

Did you see this in the classies?

WTS: - FS M&P 9mm 2.0 $400

For sale: Unfired and never carried 2.0 with two mags. Condition: Gun is still in the factory wrapper. Price: $400 Firm. FTF Hancock County. Must show LTC and ID. Thanks

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[2AOK]

I'm heavily invested in the Glock platform at this point, so the Shadow Systems option was an easy choice. It uses Glock mags and fits in Glock holsters. It's everything I like about Glock...only better in almost every way.

I saw that little serrated take-down bar and thought, "That's just like a Glock..." Now I get it. And that's great that it uses Glock mags. I lost all faith in Glock-the-company based on absolute BS they tried to pull on me (long story). So I salute your move to a better platform / better company.

It also maintains the same grip angle, although that is adjustable with Shadow Systems backstrap inserts. I've learned to draw/present properly with the Glock grip angle, so maintaining this was important to me.

Man, that grip angle is the #2 reason I dumped my Glocks. I carried a G26 and shot it well, but for me the 22-degree grip rake consistently resulted in MUZZLE-HIGH presentation. Had to consciously "tilt my wrist" to compensate, every time. It works for millions though, and I'm glad it works for you.

...and next range trip I take to outer space, I'll make a note of any presence/absence of noise! I'm guessing that, due to the vacuum, I won't hear much. Stay tuned.

SEE THIS LINK.
Laughed me arse off when I first saw the movie!
The high point for me is at 0:14.
=D

 

[2AOK]

My p320 AXG shipped with regular low sights, x5 and legion both have suppressor ht sights, I don’t see any difference and nothing registers in my brain when I go from one to another. I’m paying no attention to the irons at all.

Bear with me, I'm new to this: You have low/regular iron sights. Can you still see them through the red dot lens (Lower 1/3) if you need to?

 

[2AOK]

Did you see this in the classies?

WTS: - FS M&P 9mm 2.0 $400

For sale: Unfired and never carried 2.0 with two mags. Condition: Gun is still in the factory wrapper. Price: $400 Firm. FTF Hancock County. Must show LTC and ID. Thanks

www.indianagunowners.com

Thanks, Norm.

Looks like a 250-mile round trip, and his price is firm. At that rate it's getting close to the current best price for New (yeah, but no tax and no transfer fee). Also, apparently S&W honors warranty for the original owner only.

I much appreciate the heads-up.

 

[2AOK]

If you shoot with both eyes open, even that advantage is gone.

EXCELLENT POINT.
Man, I must be really dumb when it comes to optics.

So with both eyes open, the right eye is seeing mostly the dot (though the top of the slide and front sight are present in the picture) while the left eye is seeing EVERYTHING in front of you. The entire scene, unobstructed. Am I missing something?

If the description above is accurate, why does it matter whether your dot is cowitnessed or set higher than the iron sights? Your right eye is only picking up the dot, and is not really looking through the lens. Right? So the right eye shouldn't notice that the front sight and slide are obstructing part of the picture.

 

[gregkl]

Which eye picks up the dot is a matter of eye dominance. And I challenge anyone to prove that one eye is looking at the target and one eye is looking down the sights, irons or otherwise.

Animals(like us)with front facing eyes can't really operate them independently. They are "stereo" eyes. Though eye muscles can move independently, the brain will only allow one visual focal point.

Part of the reason why a red dot works so well is that one can focus on one thing; the target. With iron sights, the eyes have to rapidly switch from target to front sight to rear sight and back again until the round leaves the barrel. Sure we say "be front sight focused", but if you only focus on the front sight with no regard to where the target is, are you going to connect? Nope.

Plus, when you think about it, most everything we do is dependent on focusing on the target: throwing a strike, hitting a billiards ball, connecting a forward pass with a receiver, sinking a 3 pointer. If people in those examples focused on end of their arm, they wouldn't be very successful.

Point is, in reality shooting with a red dot is much more instinctive than irons. The issue with a lot of us if we have learned to shoot a particular way and we now have to relearn a new system.

Disclaimer: not an eye doc. Just a guy with a fair amount of eye problems I have dealt with.

 

[ditcherman]

Bear with me, I'm new to this: You have low/regular iron sights. Can you still see them through the red dot lens (Lower 1/3) if you need to?

Negative, on regular height sights. It’s very close, but it’s actually a no. There is a channel cut in the Romeo1 Pro and others that gets you very close to almost seeing the top edge.


^what I would call my normal sight picture.


^trying to cowitness, P320 AXG low (regular) sights as shipped


^normal sight picture with suppressor sights, happens to be a P226 SAO, 320’s would be the same.


Co-witnessing with suppressor height sights.

My take away is that the sights don’t matter when everythings as it should be, and they disappear because I’m looking at the target that happens to have a dot superimposed on it. Seem to be looking right through the sights.

 

[ditcherman]

Which eye picks up the dot is a matter of eye dominance. And I challenge anyone to prove that one eye is looking at the target and one eye is looking down the sights, irons or otherwise.

Animals(like us)with front facing eyes can't really operate them independently. They are "stereo" eyes. Though eye muscles can move independently, the brain will only allow one visual focal point.

Part of the reason why a red dot works so well is that one can focus on one thing; the target. With iron sights, the eyes have to rapidly switch from target to front sight to rear sight and back again until the round leaves the barrel. Sure we say "be front sight focused", but if you only focus on the front sight with no regard to where the target is, are you going to connect? Nope.

Plus, when you think about it, most everything we do is dependent on focusing on the target: throwing a strike, hitting a billiards ball, connecting a forward pass with a receiver, sinking a 3 pointer. If people in those examples focused on end of their arm, they wouldn't be very successful.

Point is, in reality shooting with a red dot is much more instinctive than irons. The issue with a lot of us if we have learned to shoot a particular way and we now have to relearn a new system.

Disclaimer: not an eye doc. Just a guy with a fair amount of eye problems I have dealt with.

Spot on. I think I picked it up fairly quick because I wasn’t that good at focusing on my sights.

 

[cg21]

Spot on. I think I picked it up fairly quick because I wasn’t that good at focusing on my sights.

Was your gun milled or are you using plates? Looking at getting g20 milled and then a 509t hoping I can pickup regular irons still if needed

 

[ditcherman]

Was your gun milled or are you using plates? Looking at getting g20 milled and then a 509t hoping I can pickup regular irons still if needed

Neither, all Sigs, milled by Sig, wearing Sig Romeo1 Pro, so direct mount as God intended.
Have a FNX45 Tac milled for Trijicon rmr wearing that, and tried a Deltapoint pro on the crazy adapter for a FN five seven and don’t recommend.

What you are talking about is a very popular choice and I bet someone here knows…

 

[2AOK]

Negative, on regular height sights. It’s very close, but it’s actually a no. There is a channel cut in the Romeo1 Pro and others that gets you very close to almost seeing the top edge.

View attachment 218352
^normal sight picture with suppressor sights, happens to be a P226 SAO, 320’s would be the same.

View attachment 218353
Co-witnessing with suppressor height sights.

My take away is that the sights don’t matter when everythings as it should be, and they disappear because I’m looking at the target that happens to have a dot superimposed on it. Seem to be looking right through the sights.

Man! Thanks for the pictures! Very helpful, but I can be very dense, as I will now demonstrate:

Before I ask any obtuse questions, I want you guys to know that I intend to find a local gun shop that has a red dot mounted on a pistol, so I can SEE and experiment a little. That should clarify things some. I appreciate all the help, and your patience.

Picture 3 "Normal sight picture"
Looks to me like the red dot is near the top of the lens and a green front sight is below it. I don't understand how that can be your normal sight picture. The green front sight is muzzle-high relative to the rear sight. I must be missing something...

Picture 4 "Co-witnessing"
To me, that is what I'd expect your normal sight picture to be. I mean, that's now everything would line up for making an accurate shot.

What I want eventually is a red dot that mounts low enough for me to see my regular low, Novak-style M&P M2.0 sights at Lower 1/3.

School me. =D

 

[2AOK]

Which eye picks up the dot is a matter of eye dominance. And I challenge anyone to prove that one eye is looking at the target and one eye is looking down the sights, irons or otherwise.

I don't know what happens. I just LOVE how the two visual impressions get combined (in the brain's visual cortex, I think...) to form a single impression that looks like a red dot is superimposed on the target seen by my left eye. Like the dot is out there in the real world!

Whatever's actually happening, I diggit! =D