Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[2AOK]

I have a Vortex Strikefire II on my AR. Bought it used on the cheap to help me decide if I wanted electronic sight or variable power glass. 4 MOA red or green dot. I can hit 8” steel out to 200 yrds with it. Ran the Reveres Riders 223 carbine class with it as well. Now have a little over 1000 rounds with it on my AR and has worked flawlessly. That said, I can flip up my BUIS and co-witness with or without the red dot and would not have it any other way.

I looked up that LPVO per your comments. Nice and small, and at a decent price. It appears that scope/sight involves an integral mount. I want to mount as low as possible on an other-than-AR rifle, so I'll likely have to use rings, and am not sure what height will do the trick.

My pistol with a RDS is a close quarters weapon with Romeo 1 in a dovetail mount and if you are in the glass I will likely hit you.

I will keep that in mind, and will steer clear of your general vicinity after sundown.

 

[ditcherman]

Man! Thanks for the pictures! Very helpful, but I can be very dense, as I will now demonstrate:

Before I ask any obtuse questions, I want you guys to know that I intend to find a local gun shop that has a red dot mounted on a pistol, so I can SEE and experiment a little. That should clarify things some. I appreciate all the help, and your patience.

Picture 3 "Normal sight picture"
Looks to me like the red dot is near the top of the lens and a green front sight is below it. I don't understand how that can be your normal sight picture. The green front sight is muzzle-high relative to the rear sight. I must be missing something...

Picture 4 "Co-witnessing"
To me, that is what I'd expect your normal sight picture to be. I mean, that's now everything would line up for making an accurate shot.

What I want eventually is a red dot that mounts low enough for me to see (Lower 1/3) my regular low, Novak-style M&P M2.0 sights.

School me. =D

I can't school you, all I can do is tell you to lay back, relax, and accept that this is the new normal (sight picture) and that the bullet will land where your eye sees the dot landed. Very similar to how a dot works on a rifle, but I think the pistol dots are less subject to parallax and will be more accurate.

I have two predictions for you; 1. by the time you wait for a standard footprint and a low profile your novak style M&P 2.0 whatever whatever will be wore out (mostly kinda joking here)

and more seriously now #2 if you go to a gun shop and look at dots and try to understand how they work you will be at least as confused, dumbfounded, questioning, whatever as you are now. You have to have hits to understand the aim, you have to have recoil to understand what the dot is telling you about your grip. And sometimes you have to have a lot of hits just to rewire your brain.

I think the first step is to grasp how the dot is working compared to irons (I'm content with dark magic at this point) and the second step is to work on presentation and then speed.

I know a really really good shooter who is good in competition, great at party tricks, very fast on the trigger, can pick anything up and look good, but said he doesn't see the benefit of red dots on pistols. I was shocked and asked how he came to that conclusion and he said he ran a mag or 2 through a buddy's who had one. I told him he likes them he just doesn't know it yet.

I'll just add if you do go to the shop and look at them, if you can imagine using both eyes to see the target, and see the dot superimposed on the target, and ignore (look through?) the irons, then you just have to believe that the bullet will hit where the dot is landed. When you can do that you are ready to move forward. Some can just accept that, some have to work it out.

 

[2AOK]

I can't school you, all I can do is tell you to lay back, relax, and accept that this is the new normal (sight picture) and that the bullet will land where your eye sees the dot landed. Very similar to how a dot works on a rifle, but I think the pistol dots are less subject to parallax and will be more accurate.

I have two predictions for you; 1. by the time you wait for a standard footprint and a low profile your novak style M&P 2.0 whatever whatever will be wore out (mostly kinda joking here)

and more seriously now #2 if you go to a gun shop and look at dots and try to understand how they work you will be at least as confused, dumbfounded, questioning, whatever as you are now. You have to have hits to understand the aim, you have to have recoil to understand what the dot is telling you about your grip. And sometimes you have to have a lot of hits just to rewire your brain.

I think the first step is to grasp how the dot is working compared to irons (I'm content with dark magic at this point) and the second step is to work on presentation and then speed.

I know a really really good shooter who is good in competition, great at party tricks, very fast on the trigger, can pick anything up and look good, but said he doesn't see the benefit of red dots on pistols. I was shocked and asked how he came to that conclusion and he said he ran a mag or 2 through a buddy's who had one. I told him he likes them he just doesn't know it yet.

I'll just add if you do go to the shop and look at them, if you can imagine using both eyes to see the target, and see the dot superimposed on the target, and ignore (look through?) the irons, then you just have to believe that the bullet will hit where the dot is landed. When you can do that you are ready to move forward. Some can just accept that, some have to work it out.

That was some GREAT schoolin'! =D Seriously. Lot's of helpful insights.

Prediction #1
Naw, as long as ammunition is expensive I'll never wear anything out.

Prediction #2
You're right. I basically understand a red dot on a rifle, and like it a lot. I look through both eyes and am amazed at the effect. Truth be known, prior to this HELPFUL DISCUSSION, I pretty much just looked through the Romeo 5 sight with my right eye. Left eye closed, like I have done all my life. In response to the insight you guys have given me in the course of this thread, I'm truly AMAZED at the two-eyes open phenomenon. THANKS.

That said (and as you said), there seems to be an added dimension to pistol optics that I don't get yet. I'm not going to buy an optics-ready pistol, but may purchase a pre-optics M&P 2.0. If I do, per your advice I might invest in a 3rd-party mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail, and buy the cheapest reliable pistol red dot I can find. A temporary arrangement that lets me experiment, dry fire and range time.

Tell me if you think that won't help me get comfortable with the process.

Lastly, I think your very, very good shooter friend corroborates my natural instinct to avoid red dots. Disclaimer: I'm not a great shot at this point being way out of practice. For people with vision limitations or lack of experience, I think the red dot is a godsend. But I'd argue that people who are great shots, and especially those who can point shoot naturally don't need red dot optics...and may be hampered by them: strict presentation parameters, can't fire until the gun is at eye level, etc.

Thanks for the perspective.

 

[88E30M50]

Maybe we are overthinking the whole red dot thing. A couple of range trips ago, I was attempting to shoot my red dot equipped M&P 10 as fast as I shoot pretty much everything else that has irons. After a bit of frustration, I decided to forget the red dot was there and just shoot with the tall irons.

Guess what. I shot it as good as I did other iron sight pistols. But if I wanted to reach out to 40 yards, that dang dot was sitting there, ready to use if I wanted. It’s kind of changed my thinking on how I approach red dots a bit. I don’t need to be good with a red dot, but instead, just need to be good with the irons that I have and maybe use the red dot in extended circumstances.

I’ll shoot some more to see if that was a fluke or if it holds up.

 

[MCgrease08]

I looked up that LPVO per your comments. Nice and small, and at a decent price. It appears that scope/sight involves an integral mount. I want to mount as low as possible on an other-than-AR rifle, so I'll likely have to use rings, and am not sure what height will do the trick.

One small point of clarification. The Vortex Strikefire II is not a LPVO (low power variable optic). There is no magnification. It's just a red (or green) dot sight.

 

[2AOK]

One small point of clarification. The Vortex Strikefire II is not a LPVO (low power variable optic). There is no magnification. It's just a red (or green) dot sight.

Thanks. That's a very important point.

Duh

 

[gregkl]

Maybe we are overthinking the whole red dot thing.

Totally agree. Especially for me, the classic overthinker!

 

[chadm]

I went on a spree of future proofing by buying optic ready, and it’s just so foreign to me. I am just not a fan. I think I’d need another 10 yrs behind an optics pistol to get used to them.

 

[venenoindy]

The beauty of current selection of handguns is that you don't only have one to choose from or you have to follow one trend in particular, stick to what you feel more comfortable and proficient with.

 

[kaveman]

I went on a spree of future proofing by buying optic ready, and it’s just so foreign to me. I am just not a fan. I think I’d need another 10 yrs behind an optics pistol to get used to them.

Not if you got a Holosun with the ACSS Vulcan reticle. I keep trying to tell people how it works but I don't think I'm getting through. The ACSS is as quick and easy to use as iron sights,.....no 'getting used to it'.

Get a gun, mill it for RMR, mount a Holosun ACSS to it,.....done. Use the original low sights for backup irons. This thread should have ended a week ago.

Oh, btw, that HE407CO with the 8moa circle reticle just came back in stock at PSA. Not as good but second best,.....and $180. I just ordered two more this morning.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-hs407co-x2-8-moa-solar-reflex-sight-black-hs407co-x2.html

 

[2AOK]

Not if you got a Holosun with the ACSS Vulcan reticle. I keep trying to tell people how it works but I don't think I'm getting through. The ACSS is as quick and easy to use as iron sights,.....no 'getting used to it'.

Get a gun, mill it for RMR, mount a Holosun ACSS to it,.....done. Use the original low sights for backup irons. This thread should have ended a week ago.

Oh, btw, that HE407CO with the 8moa circle reticle just came back in stock at PSA. Not as good but second best,.....and $180. I just ordered two more this morning.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-hs407co-x2-8-moa-solar-reflex-sight-black-hs407co-x2.html

Thanks for the link. I'm studying up. I'm out of the loop but gaining on it, and it sounds to me like maybe the Trijicon RMR mounting spec will become the industry standard. If I were going to mill a slide today, I'd bet on the RMR spec.

 

[kaveman]

Okay, but keep in mind that the link just takes you to a good deal on a good RD sight. You'll have to bump it up another $150 to get the advantages of the ACSS reticle in the 507c.

The RMR footprint will never go away and the best open emitter sights will fit it. By settling on that footprint you can pretty much trust that you won't be bothered by the also-rans. Only exception I can see is the enclosed emitter sights which will eventually take over and never fit the RMR footprint. Hell, it's just a slide for cryin' out loud. On a four hundred dollar pistol. You've already spent more than that just in fussing over making a decision.

You remind me of a guy I used to work with who wanted a CZ512 and cornered me every time he saw me just to talk about *how much he wanted that CZ512*. For ten yrs that's all he ever talked about. Never bought one,......I'd bought several hundred guns I'd wanted during the same ten yrs. He died without ever having owned one and I will die without ever understanding what made him tick.

 

[ditcherman]

. This thread should have ended a week ago.

Well eeexcuuuuse us!
Welcome to INGO.
Seriously though, definitely agree the RMR footprint won’t go away.

 

[Dean C.]

That said (and as you said), there seems to be an added dimension to pistol optics that I don't get yet. I'm not going to buy an optics-ready pistol, but may purchase a pre-optics M&P 2.0. If I do, per your advice I might invest in a 3rd-party mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail, and buy the cheapest reliable pistol red dot I can find. A temporary arrangement that lets me experiment, dry fire and range time.

Tell me if you think that won't help me get comfortable with the process.

The RMR footprint is as close as you will ever get to an industry "standard" , get a gun milled correctly and do it right from the start. A crappy dovetail mount will put the dot up even higher making you have to alter your presentation even more.

You want your dry fire practice gun to be your "for real" gun so the familiarity is there. Plus either way you are out the cash for the dovetail mount anyways so it's cheaper in the long run to do it correctly too. I will never for the life of me understand why people cheap out on lifesaving equipment, drives me crazy.

 

[ditcherman]

per your advice I might invest in a 3rd-party mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail, and buy the cheapest reliable pistol red dot I can find. A temporary arrangement that lets me experiment, dry fire and range time.

Yea so I don’t mean to keep beating a dead horse but if I gave you the impression somewhere that a dovetail mount was a good idea I didn’t mean to. At all. I had made the comment direct mount, like God intended.
My 5.7 mount was a joke. The slide can’t be milled.
^What Dean Crail said above!

Buy once, cry once.

 

[Dean C.]

Yea so I don’t mean to keep beating a dead horse but if I gave you the impression somewhere that a dovetail mount was a good idea I didn’t mean to. At all. I had made the comment direct mount, like God intended.
My 5.7 mount was a joke. The slide can’t be milled.
^What Dean Crail said above!

Buy once, cry once.

factory direct options for RDS now available

 

[ditcherman]

factory direct options for RDS now available

I can’t see it but not sure it’s worth seeing…that face you made…

 

[2AOK]

The RMR footprint is as close as you will ever get to an industry "standard" , get a gun milled correctly and do it right from the start. A crappy dovetail mount will put the dot up even higher making you have to alter your presentation even more.

You want your dry fire practice gun to be your "for real" gun so the familiarity is there. Plus either way you are out the cash for the dovetail mount anyways so it's cheaper in the long run to do it correctly too. I will never for the life of me understand why people cheap out on lifesaving equipment, drives me crazy.

A dovetail mount and the least expensive decent red dot optic would not be lifesaving equipment for me. It would be a test bed to see if I like/want a red dot. An inexpensive, temporary means of experimention. I think I expressed that clearly before.

Milling a slide and adding an ACSS red dot is a $500+ investment. Not everyone has that kind of play money, and I didn't realize INGO was a country club for the firearms elite.
IF the red dot seems worthwhile for me based on cheap experimentation, I'll find a way to do it right. And if I do that, I'll move the cheap experimental version to a nightstand weapon.

 

[2AOK]

Yea so I don’t mean to keep beating a dead horse but if I gave you the impression somewhere that a dovetail mount was a good idea I didn’t mean to. At all. I had made the comment direct mount, like God intended.

No, you didn't encourage me at all toward buying a dovetail mount. When I wrote "per your advice" I meant that you said I might find it difficult to truly understand how red dots work UNLESS I actually work with one.
I laughed when I saw your "like God intended" comment before. So I remember it, and take it seriously. I think RMR will become the defacto mounting standard for pistol optics.

^What Dean Crail said above!
Buy once, cry once.

See my reply to Dean Crail above.

 

[MCgrease08]

A dovetail mount and the least expensive decent red dot optic would not be lifesaving equipment for me. It would be a test bed to see if I like/want a red dot. An inexpensive, temporary means of experimention. I think I expressed that clearly before.

Milling a slide and adding an ACSS red dot is a $500+ investment. I don't have that kind of play money, and I didn't realize INGO was an elite country club. IF the red dot seems worthwhile for me based on cheap experimentation, I'll find a way to do it right. And if I do that, I'll move the cheap experimental version to a nightstand weapon.

Find a buddy that has a dot on their gun and try it that way. Trying to go cheap just to test the concept seems like a good way to spend a lot of money.