Physical fitness of firearms instructors

[esrice]

Mentioned only briefly in another recent thread, I thought I'd bring up the elephant in the room as it relates to training.

How important of a role does a firearms instructor's personal physical fitness level play for you in deciding who to train with?

Looking at the instructors I'm familiar with, they run the entire spectrum. Do you gravitate toward fit instructors over all others? Do you find that those less-than-athletic folks are more personable to real world situations? Does it even matter, because we're talking about shooting guns and not running marathons? Do you hold other attributes like teaching style, personality, real-world experience, or pure shooting skill higher in priority than fitness level?

Do fit students gravitate toward fit instructors? Do less fit students gravitate toward less fit instructors? Vice-versa?

For me, I'm not an athletic person. I didn't play organized sports in school, and I hate exercise. Intellectually I know it's important and I'd like to be more athletic, but if I'm honest with myself I haven't made it a priority in my life. At 29-years-old and 5'11" and 213lbs I'm overweight but not disabled because of it. I can run and fight in short bursts but I get tired quickly. The more I train the more it becomes apparent that I need to enhance my physical fitness level. Doing so would increase my chance of survival, just as much as being a good shooter will, or being aware of my surroundings, etc. It's one thing to know how to fight-- it's another to actually be able to last in one.

So for me, continuing to be honest with myself, I do feel better about instructors who are physically fit. I guess I feel like they are setting a good example and giving me something to strive for beyond just shooting ability. I see it as having a more holistic approach to defense as opposed to one that is weighted toward tools only.

But that's not to say that I don't think non-athletes should be firearms instructors. I know some great instructors who are larger than I am, and probably couldn't run as far. And I've learned some great things about shooting from them. I also admire their ability to teach and communicate. And they're good people.

So while I personally do put some stock in it, I also find other factors to be just as important.

What about you? (be honest)

 

[pinshooter45]

I think it would depend on your personal situation. As for me since I'm a bit out of shape with a bad case Arthritis (It's one of the reasons I carry, I couldn't outrun a tortoise with my bad feet) I would gravitate more towards an older possibly more out of shape instructor so that he/she would not try to teach me some fancy moves that might be beyond my physical abilities.

 

[roadrunner681]

me i think i need to get my self in shape as well, im at 275 5'9" im overweight but not fat. i respect people that have put the effort in to stay in great shape, but i don't think its everything. but on the flip side a less fit instructor may understand a issue for people in less than great condition( older folks, etc etc) and may be able to help you better.

 

[esrice]

I think it would depend on your personal situation.

I totally agree, which is why I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss. I imagined getting some varied answers. Thanks for posting.

 

[Lucas156]

Intelligence, willingness to teach, experience etc are more important IMO. Just because someone is out of shape or a little heavier doesn't mean they're incompetent. Maybe they have genes that make them that way or they have a physical disability or a physical impairment that makes it painful to exercise.

 

[HICKMAN]

I could care less, they are instructors.

The only place it would matter to me a personal trainer.

 

[Que]

Not a big deal to me, as long as they are not continually telling me to run a mile and then put five shots in a two- inch group at 25 yards, knowing they can't do it.

 

[SEIndSAM]

My wife and I are both pretty fit. Not athletic, but we eat right and do a ton of hiking. We know a fantastic trainer who is overweight and had some health issues. We could care less about his outward appearance. It's what he has between the ears and the ability to transfer that knowledge to students that matters.
A great instructor is a great teacher. Doesn't matter what he knows if he doesn't have the communication skills to transfer that knowledge in a coherent manner.

 

[bingley]

Physical fitness is not a factor for me, though I'd guess that some people might want the "commando" air about their instructor because the image is a part of what they're looking for.

Shooting doesn't require running a marathon or powerlifting three times your body weight. This is an activity requiring a fine control of the body, and it is pretty demanding on the nervous system and the neuromotor skills. People in fitness talk a lot about strength and speed, but balance is a totally separate skill. Better balance means faster response time, more accurate tracking of things you want to shoot, etc. I'd guess that most good shooters have it, because you have to know your body.

In martial arts, a fighting style is defined more by the strategy and the style of movement that it requires. In other words, each style requires a "different body." Sometimes you can tell what art someone does just by looking at how he holds himself. Advanced people often show a high degree of awareness of their bodies, as well as a finely tuned way of moving that is unique to themselves. (I'm not talking about techniques here. I'm talking about movement in general.)

I haven't seen all that many firearms instructors, but the one who's impressed me the most with the command of his body is Louie Awerbuck. The guy knows his body, he knows how the human body moves. I suspect that's why he has a gift for diagnosing shooting problems. If you spend enough time around him, you'll probably start absorbing his pattern of movement. This is a sign of an advanced teacher who has so integrated all his knowledge as to make his movements consistent, to drive them with the same engine, if that metaphor makes any sense.

Now, being a long-time martial artist, this part I can get. What I don't get is his gift with vision. He sees everything on the line. It's like bullets fly slowly for him. I don't understand this sort of perceptive ability. I'm good with vision and awareness, but he is at some other level.

 

[dmarsh8]

I think it's important, maybe not vital..
Just as I think it's even more important LE
and firemen stay in great physical condition post Academy for their own safety first and obviously others.
For civilians who want training I thinks it's important bc
it may not always need to go lethal. Or they may be able to get to their gun in time... Those First Person Defender or defense whatever area good example.

 

[Mgderf]

I don't care about their physical condition, but they had better NOT have blonde hair.

Everyone knows blondes are ditzy and could not POSSIBLY be a competent instructor.

 

[the1kidd03]

As I sit here, unable to sleep and unwilling to do any real work at this hour, I'm gonna reply to your post piece by piece because too many things brought up too many thoughts for me to make sense of it any other way, LOL.

Mentioned only briefly in another recent thread, I thought I'd bring up the elephant in the room as it relates to training.

How important of a role does a firearms instructor's personal physical fitness level play for you in deciding who to train with?

This is going to be so subjective to the person's ultimate goals it's nearly irrelevant. I don't mean that in a harsh way so much as I do to simply point out that there are more reasons people get into guns than there are shades of gray.

I would suggest that the majority simply enjoy shooting and want to be better at it in a pure marksmanship sense. A much smaller segment actually seek training in a martial context. An even smaller segment take it so seriously to actually take steps which would include (in some cases) large life altering steps to preparedness. This is basically determined by each person's "risk vs reward" perception and how likely they think they are to enter a life or death struggle. Had I not been presented with some of the situations I had growing up, I would probably agree with the idea that being confronted with dangerous situations is unlikely if I try to avoid them. However, I always have tried to avoid them and they still seemed to find me unexpectedly and I try to relay that to people as best I can and get them to seek training, get in shape, etc.

Looking at the instructors I'm familiar with, they run the entire spectrum. Do you gravitate toward fit instructors over all others? Do you find that those less-than-athletic folks are more personable to real world situations? Does it even matter, because we're talking about shooting guns and not running marathons? Do you hold other attributes like teaching style, personality, real-world experience, or pure shooting skill higher in priority than fitness level?

Do fit students gravitate toward fit instructors? Do less fit students gravitate toward less fit instructors? Vice-versa?

I think that is the most likely in all honesty. People want to reason with themselves to find justifications for their existing choices. If a person is either fit or less fit, they are likely to seek the same in an instructor to quantify that their level of fitness is acceptable under the premise that "if he can do it, then so can I." I say this needs to be put into context for the student. Fitness becomes less necessary when you wish to learn pure marksmanship skills for instance, or gun handling/manipulation skills. Throw in a martial aspect and it becomes ever so increasingly important (depending on what the student wishes to learn/prepare for and what the instructor is teaching) because those situations are unpredictable.

Realistically, being less fit is a disadvantage in a martial situation. Since it is unpredictable, and often arises unexpectedly, your fitness level can be that much more detrimental to your ability to survive it. We all know how much a role the heart and vascular system plays in a body alarm response. Whether you know of it from experience or through reading it is no less true. From experiencing it, I would say it is of far greater importance than what most people think of it as. I'm not a doctor, but depending on the circumstances if a person is seriously out of shape and is greeted with a true, unexpected body alarm reaction it would not surprise me a bit for that to have the ability to induce a heart attack at that instant (or something similar.) When your life is already threatened by other means, that's not the best time to be "outnumbered by circumstance." You prepare already in the way of carrying a gun, so why wouldn't you take your life seriously enough to prepare in fitness?

For me, I'm not an athletic person. I didn't play organized sports in school, and I hate exercise. Intellectually I know it's important and I'd like to be more athletic, but if I'm honest with myself I haven't made it a priority in my life. At 29-years-old and 5'11" and 213lbs I'm overweight but not disabled because of it. I can run and fight in short bursts but I get tired quickly. The more I train the more it becomes apparent that I need to enhance my physical fitness level. Doing so would increase my chance of survival, just as much as being a good shooter will, or being aware of my surroundings, etc. It's one thing to know how to fight-- it's another to actually be able to last in one.

You REALLY hit the nail on the head here. Endurance is fundamental. Size is not always an indication of fitness level either. Most people in the civilian world it may be a bit more true, but I have met some guys who seemed a little "big boned" or "stocky" that could certainly hack it with smaller guys. They are certainly more rare, but my point is that size does not = fitness level. Skinny does not equal fit. Huge muscles do not equal fit.

I love the tough guy attitudes that believe otherwise and it's funny to prove their idea of fitness false. Take them for a short and fast ruck run and they quickly see how those big muscles actually could hurt them in a violent situation. If I need them to curl and engine block up onto the table then I'll call them over, but if I need someone to sprint with a pack of gear 100 yards to the next point of cover.... What's more likely in a violent struggle? In such situations and their unpredictability, endurance and the ability to survive the duration of the fight will more often be more crucial than size of muscles. Large muscle mass is not easily obtainable with higher levels of endurance because to achieve one begins eating at another. So, I've enjoyed the opportunities I've had (when I was in better shape) to show some larger "meat heads" (for lack of better terms) that their muscles hurt them in a martial sense. Look at MMA fighters vs wrestlers for example. Lean mass vs large mass.

So for me, continuing to be honest with myself, I do feel better about instructors who are physically fit. I guess I feel like they are setting a good example and giving me something to strive for beyond just shooting ability. I see it as having a more holistic approach to defense as opposed to one that is weighted toward tools only.

You always have a very common sense/realistic approach to how you perceive these things which I enjoy reading. I hope it has an affect on how others do and weighs on their decisions for training, and I'm sure it does.

Now that I sit at a computer for umpteen hours a day between studies and work, I have put on some pounds that I absolutely hate. Those who know/have met me know I'm not a huge guy, but the extra around the middle that I have [earned, in all honesty] is unacceptable to me. I've since began running in the mornings (as much as I can with my injury) and lifting in the evenings. I'll continue to improve to the best of my ability and I urge others to do the same if their focus is on the ability to survive a violent confrontation.

But that's not to say that I don't think non-athletes should be firearms instructors. I know some great instructors who are larger than I am, and probably couldn't run as far. And I've learned some great things about shooting from them. I also admire their ability to teach and communicate. And they're good people.

So while I personally do put some stock in it, I also find other factors to be just as important.

What about you? (be honest)

Again, it depends on what I'm wanting to learn. If I'm attending training for the martial aspect, then fitness is a large part of it.

Food for thought: The choice of using my "workspace," indexing a finger on a reload, etc. are not likely to be the deciding factor in the outcome of my confrontation. Being unable to reach suitable cover a fair distance away from my starting point quickly enough while presenting twice the target size that I should be.......likely will.
Now that it's too late for me to try to get any sleep, I might as well go for my run.

 

[cedartop]

kidd, quit making good points, you are completely throwing me.

Evan, I think you know where I fall in this, but apparently it is not the prevailing opinion. Popular or not, physical fitness is important, not just in training for being victorious in a deadly force encounter but for life in general. I understand that everyone can have limitations, but you should be in the best shape you can for the condition you are in.

 

[VERT]

Probably a bad time to admit that I am sitting in my little popup camper, eating poptarts with my son.

I really don't think about it. Depends on the class. My expectation is that an instructor be able to demonstrate what they are teaching.

 

[Que]

I agree with Kidd, except for the MMA/wrestler comparison. Someone who is truly training in the sport of wrestling and not a television actor/stunt man, have similar muscle structure.

I would love to see every law abiding citizen in perfect shape, but that will not happen. I must take care of me and if an instructor has relevant information to convey, I want to get that from him. If he can teach me to deploy and use my firearm in a way that will save my life, I'm getting that information from him.

I can overlook physical attributes, just as easily as personalities. Bottom line is, I want the information that will help me and I'm not worried about the package it comes from.

 

[SmokinSigs357]

I pick Travis Haley because he's dreamy...

 

[Gabriel]

How important of a role does a firearms instructor's personal physical fitness level play for you in deciding who to train with?


(be honest)

OK...Here's my honest opinion: I would not train with a fat firearms instructor. I will not sit and listen to some obese clown preach to me about "combat mindset" and tactics when I can clearly see that the instructor can't run ten feet without breaking a sweat and doesn't even have the self control to say no to a Twinkie.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

As a fat guy who's on a mission to drop 100 pounds, I would be inspired by seeing a firearms instructor who was in great shape and all the cool moves they could do. As a fat guy who's a realist, I'm 6 months to a year till I hit my goal and I'd like to learn from another fat guy to know what I can do until then.

 

[Coach]

My qualification on this subject:
As a fat guy I hear this fit stuff all the time in many different aspects of life. I have heard about it all my life. I was not naturally fat. I have had to work at it. I played football and wrestled in high school. I wrestled in college. I won some championships and I qualified for nationals. I am not great by any stretch but I have been in many different gyms full of people knowing there was not a man in the gym that could kick my ass, and on the other side of that coin I have had my ass kicked severely multiple times. In college as a heavyweight I could wrestle hard for the entire 7 minutes of the match, which is why I won most matches that I won. There will be a lot of fitness experts on here commenting that had never had the ability to do that. Right now at age 43 and 300 pounds of man I probably have about 2 minutes of a good fight in me. But I can draw in less than a second. (and get a hit)

Looks do not equal fit.
Ability to run long distances is only one form of tough.
Mental toughness and heart count more than anything else.
Shooting skills do not require fitness.
Colt is the one who made men equal. I can be fit and still not up to the task.
There are a lot of pussies that can bench press 400 pounds.
Fit does not mean they are a teacher
Fit does not mean they know anything.
I regularly beat people in pistol matches who are younger, more fit and better athletes than I. (what the hell does that mean?)
In my experience the tanned, well manicured, clean cut, dude with six pack abs is often not as tough as that scrappy little freckled soft looking dude.
In my experience the little, strong, fit dude with some sort of syndrome can be picked up and discarded while eating a twinkie and flipping off his brother.

I don't pick firearms instructors because of what they look like but for the ability to teach, knowledge.
John Farnham is not fit but I would take a class from him.

Why do so many fit people feel they have to attack fat people for being fat? What does it matter to you?

Closing thought; I hate being fat but I am not about to diet or exercise. I gave that stuff up in 1992.

 

[bingley]

I'm in complete agreement with Coach. Some very fit people are poor fighters both in their heart and in their technique. Also, being fit doesn't mean you are coordinated, or that you move well.