Pence for Governor '12!!!

[Mike_Indy]

Pence, deserves to be considered for Gov. As to my vote, need more info and to see what his plans are going to be. I see nobody better lining up at this time.

As to the totally hijacked topic this has turned into...
Your logic is definitely flawed. Your past or current situation(s) have closed your mind to see it objectively. Special considerations create more issues than they solve. We have laws (as stated VERY well MANY times on this thread) that make it illegal to abuse or beat or whatever someone for any reason. I'm certainly not going to beat the crap out of someone because I "like" them. As already said, I I do such a thing, I deserve the punishment for the crime. A "hate" crime bill places "groups" of any MINORITY type above the perceived majority. If the "South" is not enforcing the laws, deal with that issue - enforce the laws. Making more laws will not change it.

According to your "logic" more gun laws would make things so safe around here that I could throw all of my guns into the ocean and live in peace.

People need to get over their labels and think as one. I'm an American. They guy or gal standing next to me, born here, raised here etc, is an American as well. The color of his/her skin or other things that make them unique should not give him special considerations above me or any other citizen.

For a very well stated opinion on the same line see the video here...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGEDxS5Q4W4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGEDxS5Q4W4[/ame]

 

[Bill of Rights]

Matthew,

I've not made a secret of the fact that I was raised Jewish. Believe me when I say that I know hate fairly intimately. When others have expressed hate for me, yeah, I would have liked to have seen something happen to them because of it... but the fact is that that is policing their thoughts. If someone attempts to beat the ____ out of me while calling me a _______ Jew, I don't care about his reason... the thing that matters to me at that moment is the beating. Adding "hate crime" penalties to it just mean that the guy beating me... if he's caught... will spend more time behind bars. It's not going to change his mind as to his reasoning. It's not going to stop him from doing it again, once that sentence is served. I'm not any more or less hurt because of his reason.

The problem with "hate crime" laws is exactly as others have said. Do you recall the "Jenah 6" case? A few years ago, six boys beat the hell out of one other. Six on one odds. Clearly, this was a case of disparity of force. Race was a factor as well, and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton both made predictable appearances.

Both of them spoke for acquittal of the six assailants. You see, it's apparently OK for six young Black boys to seriously injure one White boy. Put the shoe on the other foot: Reverse the colors in that case and tell me that anyone would have argued for acquittal of the six. Therein lies the "hate crime" problem. You say you would argue for the law to apply equally, however it just doesn't happen that way.

In law, crimes are either mala prohibita or mala in se, meaning respectively, bad because someone said it was bad and bad in and of itself (the translations aren't exact). To assault someone is malum in se. To hold hate of something about that person as the reason for the assault, while reprehensible, is malum prohibitum.

You may think whatever you want about the crimes. Answer this, though: If two people at different times both attack you and break one of your limbs in the process of the beating, one calling you names because of some facet of your self and the other not.. Are you more injured, or is the additional "injury" just a matter of hurt feelings?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[CarmelHP]

The best way to improve this country is to make a federal crime out of every perceived malicious thought. Riiiiiiiiight..............

 

[awatarius]

Matthew,

I've not made a secret of the fact that I was raised Jewish. Believe me when I say that I know hate fairly intimately. When others have expressed hate for me, yeah, I would have liked to have seen something happen to them because of it... but the fact is that that is policing their thoughts. If someone attempts to beat the ____ out of me while calling me a _______ Jew, I don't care about his reason... the thing that matters to me at that moment is the beating. Adding "hate crime" penalties to it just mean that the guy beating me... if he's caught... will spend more time behind bars. It's not going to change his mind as to his reasoning. It's not going to stop him from doing it again, once that sentence is served. I'm not any more or less hurt because of his reason.

The problem with "hate crime" laws is exactly as others have said. Do you recall the "Jenah 6" case? A few years ago, six boys beat the hell out of one other. Six on one odds. Clearly, this was a case of disparity of force. Race was a factor as well, and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton both made predictable appearances.

Both of them spoke for acquittal of the six assailants. You see, it's apparently OK for six young Black boys to seriously injure one White boy. Put the shoe on the other foot: Reverse the colors in that case and tell me that anyone would have argued for acquittal of the six. Therein lies the "hate crime" problem. You say you would argue for the law to apply equally, however it just doesn't happen that way.

In law, crimes are either mala prohibita or mala in se, meaning respectively, bad because someone said it was bad and bad in and of itself (the translations aren't exact). To assault someone is malum in se. To hold hate of something about that person as the reason for the assault, while reprehensible, is malum prohibitum.

You may think whatever you want about the crimes. Answer this, though: If two people at different times both attack you and break one of your limbs in the process of the beating, one calling you names because of some facet of your self and the other not.. Are you more injured, or is the additional "injury" just a matter of hurt feelings?

Blessings,
Bill

^This is brilliant. It's the compounding of the issue. If someone broke my leg, and I knew who it was the result has been played out before. I would find them, plot it out, and break a leg or two of my own. I likely would go to jail but my teaching on them would be learned. That is right, and wrong, and yet it often (in the past) is how I handled issues like that even more so in my community. Everyone want's to know what I did? My friend Adam was gay bashed in a town called Batesville Indiana. I did not live there at the time, but I found out who did it. Nobody proved or could prove who did what legally. Some of my football friends, and redneck friends exacted revenge on every one. It was known in my home town that the same thing would happen, gays were treated well in my small town. I do not advocate violence, but I am not opposed to coming up with my own solutions. I however am rare in my community most would say I am doing more harm than good... but nobody could argue with the results. I can't be in every town, and the rising violence if more people were in my mindset would cause further issues. I would feel the same if my leg were broke, I don't care about the reason. What i care about is if the local authorities turned a blind eye or the investigation wasn't done as completely because I was gay. That gets around and people see open sport. Now I can call the feds and BINGO BLAMO the local authorities also get smacked around a bit for not doing a good job. You folks have however honestly changed my mind on one part... I think hate crime legislation is great---but don't make increased penalties make it the same penalty for everyone else of a similar crime, but leave it at a federal level to stop local idiots from interfering with investigations.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[melensdad]

Matthew you are not making your case well at all. In fact I believe your illogic hurts your argument almost every time you post.

I'm one of the first people here on INGO to come to the defense of gays, and have done it with great consistency, but honestly you have made it very hard for logical thinking individuals to defend you.

By choosing to support "hate crime" status you are also choosing to be labeled as a victim, you are also choosing to set aside certain people as having special status above and beyond other people. Why are gays, blacks, women, Chinese, native Indians, Jews and Muslims set aside but Catholics are not?

 

[christman]

The best way to improve this country is to make a federal crime out of every perceived malicious thought. Riiiiiiiiight..............

Sounds familiar.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrYKQiyeNv0[/ame]

 

[christman]

^This is brilliant. It's the compounding of the issue. If someone broke my leg, and I knew who it was the result has been played out before. I would find them, plot it out, and break a leg or two of my own. I likely would go to jail but my teaching on them would be learned. That is right, and wrong, and yet it often (in the past) is how I handled issues like that even more so in my community. Everyone want's to know what I did? My friend Adam was gay bashed in a town called Batesville Indiana. I did not live there at the time, but I found out who did it. Nobody proved or could prove who did what legally. Some of my football friends, and redneck friends exacted revenge on every one. It was known in my home town that the same thing would happen, gays were treated well in my small town. I do not advocate violence, but I am not opposed to coming up with my own solutions. I however am rare in my community most would say I am doing more harm than good... but nobody could argue with the results. I can't be in every town, and the rising violence if more people were in my mindset would cause further issues. I would feel the same if my leg were broke, I don't care about the reason. What i care about is if the local authorities turned a blind eye or the investigation wasn't done as completely because I was gay. That gets around and people see open sport. Now I can call the feds and BINGO BLAMO the local authorities also get smacked around a bit for not doing a good job. You folks have however honestly changed my mind on one part... I think hate crime legislation is great---but don't make increased penalties make it the same penalty for everyone else of a similar crime, but leave it at a federal level to stop local idiots from interfering with investigations.

Thanks,
Matthew

I..I...I.....I.....I.....Its not just about you. Stop the division. We are all equally important under the law.

 

[christman]

but don't make increased penalties make it the same penalty for everyone else of a similar crime, but leave it at a federal level to stop local idiots from interfering with investigations.

Whats the point of calling it something different when the crime is the same? This is becoming a merry-go-round here...

And the "local idiots" might not appreciate being bunched into one group of people they also despise...Stop hate bashing one group because of your problems with a few.

 

[awatarius]

Matthew you are not making your case well at all. In fact I believe your illogic hurts your argument almost every time you post.

I'm one of the first people here on INGO to come to the defense of gays, and have done it with great consistency, but honestly you have made it very hard for logical thinking individuals to defend you.

By choosing to support "hate crime" status you are also choosing to be labeled as a victim, you are also choosing to set aside certain people as having special status above and beyond other people. Why are gays, blacks, women, Chinese, native Indians, Jews and Muslims set aside but Catholics are not?

Strange that the law is, and most gay people support it. These arguments I set forth are ones my community uses often. Many of us are very logical so i'm sorry you don't see the logic in it. Read this article completely and realize that when any of these stories are posted it's "reported cases" when advocacy groups do research you can expand those numbers greatly. Fear, and intensity has a lot to do with it. I won't post on this anymore because my illogical opinions will just do further harm, and get me more negative rep.

Violence against LGBT people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are also different types of hate crime laws and not all of them support increased punishment, these are the most important

Hate Crime - Do Hate-crime Laws Restrict First Amendment Rights?, Further Readings - Court, Based, Speech, Crimes, Statute, and Supreme

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[awatarius]

Whats the point of calling it something different when the crime is the same? This is becoming a merry-go-round here...

And the "local idiots" might not appreciate being bunched into one group of people they also despise...Stop hate bashing one group because of your problems with a few.

No way! A local group that would ignore a crime or do less work on it based on moral, or prejudice reasons is a local idiot. DONE PERIOD and don't compare it to someone beating up a gay that is... NM I said I was done and I am.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Hiram2005]

Shoot, have a face to face conversation with me sometime. I'll have us out on so many tangents you won't know what day it is. (See what I did here?)

I know I'm a day late and maybe a dollar short, but that comment describes me perfectly.

 

[melensdad]

Strange that the law is, and most gay people support it. These arguments I set forth are ones my community uses often. . .

So a majority of the gay community supports hate crime legislation, in your mind that makes it good?

Is it not also a fact that the majority of illegal aliens support curbing deportation?

Is it not also a fact that the majority of welfare recipients favor expanding aid programs even if they hurt the overall economy?

I could go on but the illogic of your statements, now apparently extends to collective illogic of your community. It doesn't take much to destroy the basis of your argument.

. . . I won't post on this anymore because my illogical opinions will just do further harm, and get me more negative rep. . .

I do think you really need to examine this issue from the standpoint of legal consistency. As for "negative reps" you will get none from me. I understand your plight, but cannot support your theoretical solution because it is not only not a solution but it, by its own definitions, creates sub-citizens underneath those who are elevated up to a protective class of citizens.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

No way! A local group that would ignore a crime or do less work on it based on moral, or prejudice reasons is a local idiot. DONE PERIOD and don't compare it to someone beating up a gay that is... NM I said I was done and I am.

Thanks,
Matthew

Funny. This sounds almost verbatim like what Osama Bin Laden said when he first declared war on America - that all Americans, regardless of their politics or religion, were guilty because of the actions of a few and inaction of the mass. Malcolm X spewed the same crap when he was preaching against whites - that all whites, even those that supported blacks, were guilty of oppression because of their whiteness. You're in good company. Pathetic.

Based on your other post about beating innocent people up you're really nothing more than a bully with a big chip on your shoulder. Nothing more. Repulsive if you ask me.

 

[CarmelHP]

Based on your other post about beating innocent people up you're really nothing more than a bully with a big chip on your shoulder. Nothing more. Repulsive if you ask me.

I think a more fitting moniker than "bully" is "criminally insane."

 

[christman]

DONE PERIOD and don't compare it to someone beating up a gay that is... NM I said I was done and I am.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[SnoopLoggyDog]

Hey, did anyone hear that Mike Pence is running for Governor?

 

[Ogre]

Hey, did anyone hear that Mike Pence is running for Governor?

Someone should start a thread about it....

 

[level.eleven]

I would actually like to hear SemperFi's and CarmelHP's take on the Pence decision. Quit talking about thought crime!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I would actually like to hear SemperFi's and CarmelHP's take on the Pence decision. Quit talking about thought crime!

Who's Mike Pence?

Seriously, it would be great for Indiana. He's made some political votes, but I'm not going to hold it against him. Anyone the Democrats field will be infinately worse.

 

[christman]

Who's Mike Pence?

Seriously, it would be great for Indiana. He's made some political votes, but I'm not going to hold it against him. Anyone the Democrats field will be infinately worse.

I concur. We are never going to have someone win that we agree with 100%. Unless of course you get your opinions from cable news.