Paramedic to stand trial for obstructing police

[kedie]

If an officer with assistance on scene makes the choice to use a weapon to subdue a mentally unstable, suicidal, and un-well women rather than at least attempt to use a more appropriate form of force such as a hand to hand confrontation in order to prevent superficial injury to themselves then that officer demonstrates a profound disregard for life.

According to the article they did just that. There was verbal confrontation, then she took a swing. At that point it became physical. When physical restraint didn't work they went to the tazer.

The actions of this EMT are morally praiseworthy.

Absolutely not. Her actions were stupid, irrsponsible and not in the best interests of anyone on that scene. Should she be a criminal? No. Should she be disciplined? Yes.

 

[1032JBT]

I think you've got it backwards. I think the volts are high and the amperage is extremely low. It's been awhile since I've had electrical safety training but I believe .5 amps can kill you.

I didn't have it backwards......sorry should have put it in my other post. The Taser puts out 50K volts, however that is only for less than a second then it steps it down to around 1500V if I remember correctly. I can look thru my training manuels if you want to know for sure. The average static shock you get from a door knob is around 100K volts.......double that of a Taser at it's highest. I know it's the amps that kill you......and the Taser is in the .00???? range, again I can get you the numbers if you want them.


So to stand by my previous statement.......if my dept would allow you to do I would let you give me #21. They won't (don't ask how I know this...) but if they ever change their mind I'll let you know.

I'm not stating by any means that they were in violation of the law. And I have only proposed that the officers in this case acted unethically.

Based on those actions I am making a moral judgment against the officers. As well as stating that the EMT is praiseworthy.

I have defended my position with available facts as well as anecdotal reference and my own personal opinions and minor supposition.

I was typing my last reply to you when you sent this one. I respect that you are able to have your own opinion on the matter and as I said before am willing to agree to disagree.

 

[hornadylnl]

To most people, anything over 110 volts is high as that's what we are using in everyday life. We are on the same page. I work with 480v 3 phase every day at work. We had to watch safety videos with pictures of charred remains. Not fun. There are many different circumstances that can lead to death. The biggest one is the path it travels. Some electricians will only work in a live panel with one hand while the other behind their back. Electricity will follow the path of least resistance. If the charge enters one hand and your other is the easiest source to ground, it will travel fro one hand to the other. Guess which major organ sits between both hands? I see why direct hits to the chest area with a taser are unadvisable. Granted, in a confrontation, you can't always pick your shots.

 

[public servant]

Tazers have proven to have an High lethality in all individuals regardless of age, health, or physical condition.

http://emj.bmj.com/content/early/2010/05/31/emj.2009.088468.abstract

SpringerLink - Forensic Science, Medicine, and Pathology, Volume 6, Number 1

Elsevier

Elsevier

http://taser.com/research/Science/Documents/Bleetman TASER safety.pdf

An Animal Model to Investigate Effectiveness and Safety of Conducted Energy Weapons (Including TASER® Devices)* - Jauchem - 2010 - Journal of Forensic Sciences - Wiley Online Library

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.91.2264&rep=rep1&type=pdf

None of these links support the claim of "High lethality".

While I concede that even one death is too many...without researching it...I'd feel safe in stating that I'm sure more people are seriously injured or die physically fighting with the police than those who are tased.

 

[The Meach]

Have you read every single autopsy report from every year there was 440 "killed" by the Taser (not tazer)? In the vast majority of those cases there were other factors involved.......high levels of narcotics, long periods of flight on foot, long periods of fighting with police, etc. I will conceed that I haven't read the autopsy reports either, but I have read enough legal briefs about a lot of these cases to know there were other factors involved in the vast majority of these deaths and it was not soley the Taser.

Just out of curiosity though.......out of that 440 average deaths per year, how many total deployments of the Taser were done? I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing the number would put the percentage of deaths at most in the single digit range if not lower than that.


You can quote all the "stories" you want, but the fact remains that the most likely injury from a Taser deployment is an injury from a fall.....period. Trust me.......if I honestly thought the Taser was likely to or even had a semi-decent chance to cause death or any serous injury, I would not use it unless the situation called for deadly force and I sure as Hell wouln't have been hit with it.

I'm not stating that tazers are universally unethical. They are a preferred method of debilitation and restraint in cases where an officer (or plural) are completely unable restrain a violent or dangerous individual and no other recourse is available.

This was not the case in the OP. I do not believe that two fully trained, physically capable officers of the law could not restrain one deranged woman.

And yes i agree that the lethality rate for electronic weaponry is most likely in the single digits. However my definition of "High" lethality rate was by medical standards. Medical procedures that are deemed not completely necessary that also have mortality in the single digits are considered to dangerous to be allowed.

Thus Medical professionals are as a rule against the use of electronic weaponry unless their use is to prevent an even greater possible negative outcome than their non-use.

In this situation you have two risk paths:

Use a Tazer -> remote but possible suspect death

Not use tazer -> possible minor officer injury

To the EMT using a medical mindset the choice was clear and the use of a tazer was unacceptable

And as far as the validity and reliability of my "Stories" i'm not sure what else i could use other than peer reviewed medical journals and case studies. however if these are unacceptable to you what would you suggest?

 

[public servant]

Taser statistics. Lots of information.

http://www.taser.com/research/stati...Injury Reduction Stats PUBLIC June 3 2009.pdf

 

[Bill of Rights]

Note that all comments contained in this post are based solely on the story I just read. I'm not naive enough to believe that the newspapers get it right every time without a misquote or an error of fact.

I think the only one in the wrong here was the patient and her "wrong" consists of committing an assault and a battery on another person. I don't care that the person she swung at was a cop or a medic or a bum/homeless person/urban outdoorsman on the corner.

I think she's perfectly within her rights if she wants to kill herself, but once she involves others in that decision, even by informing them of it, our current laws require her to be transported for evaluation by someone with a much bigger sheepskin on the wall than I have.

The LEOs addressed a violent threat as per their training. As I said in another post, my training taught me that the order of priority is me first, my partner second, the patient(s) third, and everyone else last. Additionally, one of our continuing education classes teaches that your first question is always, "Is the scene secure?" If the answer is no, you don't enter.

Based on that, I think that this paramedic did what she could for her patient, but I don't agree that her choice was wise or in keeping with anything I've ever been taught. Police have a force continuum that begins with "officer presence" and ends with deadly force. Despite studies and data and anecdotal what-have-you, the taser is one or two steps below "deadly force". I agree that it's possible that it is overused, but I have little doubt that this woman received multiple warnings and had every opportunity to adjust her own attitude. She chose not to do so, and eventually, she paid the price for her choice.

I don't think the medic should have been charged criminally for her actions.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[1032JBT]

I'm not stating that tazers are universally unethical. They are a preferred method of debilitation and restraint in cases where an officer (or plural) are completely unable restrain a violent or dangerous individual and no other recourse is available.

This was not the case in the OP. I do not believe that two fully trained, physically capable officers of the law could not restrain one deranged woman.

And yes i agree that the lethality rate for electronic weaponry is most likely in the single digits. However my definition of "High" lethality rate was by medical standards. Medical procedures that are deemed not completely necessary that also have mortality in the single digits are considered to dangerous to be allowed.

Thus Medical professionals are as a rule against the use of electronic weaponry unless their use is to prevent an even greater possible negative outcome than their non-use.

In this situation you have two risk paths:

Use a Tazer -> remote but possible suspect death

Not use tazer -> possible minor officer injury

To the EMT using a medical mindset the choice was clear and the use of a tazer was unacceptable

And as far as the validity and reliability of my "Stories" i'm not sure what else i could use other than peer reviewed medical journals and case studies. however if these are unacceptable to you what would you suggest?[/quote]



First bolded part:


Once "your" patient has refused to go to the hospital with you and takes a swing at me..........she is no longer "your" patient, she's mine to deal with. In the case presented I will try to do so as humanely as I can but sometimes even the most humane way is painful. I have been in fights with resister females before.......they are extremly hard to hold onto and very flexible. You might not believe me, and once again that's fine, but the Taser is the normally least painful and/or dangerous way to deal with them.



The second bolded part:


For us to just agree to dsagree. I understand you are not in favor of the Taser (specificaly in this case), and that's fine. I see the other side of it and I think it was appropriate. We can just agree to disagree in a civil manner because I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

 

[public servant]

I don't think the medic should have been charged criminally for her actions.

 

[1032JBT]

And as Public_Servant quoted Bill............the medic should not have been charged. I think that while some of us disagree on other issues here....that is one we can all agree on.

 

[target64]

The officer could have tased the EMT and then the combatant.....two for one

 

[1032JBT]

The officer could have tased the EMT and then the combatant.....two for one

Well technically..........if the medic was holding onto the patient when the Taser was fired, it's entirely possible. Been done before........seen it done before.

 

[The Meach]

Sorry if i got i bit combative there fpd.

I see where you are coming from, And I really do agree that in many situations tazers save alot more pain than they cause. But we all do seem to agree on the crux of the issue tho. The EMT shouldn't have been charged with anything.

Its been fun debatin with yall. Cheers!

 

[1032JBT]

Sorry if i got i bit combative there fpd.

We all do seem to agree on the crux of the issue tho. The EMT shouldn't have been charged with anything.

Its been fun debatin with yall. Cheers!

No reason to be sorry.........I didn't take anything as combative, we were just having a civil disagreement. We are allowed to do that.

 

[public servant]

...we were just having a civil disagreement. We are allowed to do that.

God knows...that's become a rarity lately. But the usual suspects are missing tonight.

You JBT.

 

[1032JBT]

God knows...that's become a rarity lately. But the usual suspects are missing tonight.

You JBT.

Yep.........and don't tell anyone but I'm a di*k too, I just chose not to be ths time. Man the amonia from the cat **** house I was in yesterday is still effecting my brain

 

[rmabrey]

And as Public_Servant quoted Bill............the medic should not have been charged. I think that while some of us disagree on other issues here....that is one we can all agree on.

 

[public servant]

OK..vacation ends at 03:45 in the morning. You all have a good night.

 

[Prometheus]

Heard about this one already. My cousin worked as an EMT night shift while he was finishing med school and during his residency (i know hardcore right?) But if he was in this situation he would have been morally obligated to intervene by his Hippocratic Oath.

As he [my cousin] put it, upon encountering the individual she would became his patient. Now if the police threatened to harm his patient needlessly by the standards of his medical judgment. He wouldn't be able to NOT intervene.

This girl shouldn't be punished she should be given a fricken medal for stepping in front of a proven lethal weapon to protect a woman under her care.

The woman was an idiot. Tazers are = to firearms. And the Cops in this case were unreasonable.

Generally you aren't going to see a Medic (esp a female) jumping in front of cops to protect a patient if there is any reasonable assumption the there is a threat.

In EMS we counted on our fellow public servants to assist us and if need be, take point on suicidal and/or violent patients.

For those who don't normally deal with suicidal people, it's generally a cry for help and rarely (when druggies aren't involved) are they ever violent. That is not to say you aren't always on guard and take any unnecessary risks... lets be real, any 9-1-1 run is a risk.

Given the cops arrested the female medic, it sounds like they were JBTs.

Back in the day (barely a decade ago), my partner and I and the couple of LEOs would have just put her on the stretcher and and wheeled her out. There wouldn't have been any asinine tasing even considered.

Sounds like taser happy control freaks were out to ruin everyones day.

-1 for these "LEOs".

Given the info we have now, I'd vote to acquit without a second thought.

Just as an aside... WTH is wrong with cops now a days? We seem to be hearing on an almost weekly basis about cops and fire/ems getting into it? A decade ago we were buddy buddy... what in the world is going on? IS there some sort of "jack booted thug, tase everyone and hate everyone who isn't a cop including fire fighters and emt's" drink they are giving out on graduation day from the academy?

I'd honestly suggest all you good cops get these a-holes in line if you expect to get ANY respect at all. I simply don't understand the sheer volume of stupidity from the "blue line" as of late.