-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Outright theft of intellectual property
- Thread starter Shay
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
shooter521
Certified Glock Nut
It's not; they're out of Ohio. Company name is in the Saiga forum link provided in the OP. They have been discussed here in the past, as well.
I'm sure I will sound like an a'hole (I usually do) and I don't mean to offend, but I don't think you pioneered this idea. Please see the blog post dated 1.2.2008 at this link. Hidden Defense: Hip Grip/Mexican Carry Trigger Holster . Again no offense.
And the plot thickens, I can almost hear the dramatic soap opera music in the background.
Never meant to imply that he did. I'm just pointing out the fact that this idea has been around. The only accusations of theft that have been made in this thread were made about the "unnamed holster maker" by the person who started this thread. I'm only providing information and have no position in this feud.
I have digital pics of my Vanguard prototypes from mid 2007 and demoed the product to another holster manufacturer at SHOT Show in early 2008. I filed my provisional patent request in February of 2008 after returning home from that trip.
I have no idea who the blogger is, but the timing suggests the similarity is most likely coincidence.
The company currently copying the Vanguard is making a nearly identical copy and has a history of copying other holster designs from Raven.
I have no idea who the blogger is, but the timing suggests the similarity is most likely coincidence.
The company currently copying the Vanguard is making a nearly identical copy and has a history of copying other holster designs from Raven.
ATF Consumer
Shooter
This was taken from lewrockwell.com ...
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]IP: It's a Market Failure Argument[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the hundreds of emails I've received over the issue of intellectual property, the number one most common objection to doing without goes like this. We can't subject the matters to free market competition. Some innovations are too easy to copy. Just one look or listen and the producer's idea is taken from. Then another company that had nothing to do with bearing the costs of innovation will be able to reap the rewards. We have to have a period of monopoly if only to inspire people to innovate and bring things to market. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Now, consider first what a central-planning apparatus this entails. A vibrant and enterprising economy will consist of hundreds if not millions of innovations per day. Our work lives, no matter what field we are in, are all about doing things better, bringing better products to the world, stepping forward into a future in which ever better stuff is ever more affordable. That requires unrelenting innovation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]If you are to establish a government office to keep tabs on this activity, that alone is going to require massive bureaucracy. If the bureaucracy is charged with granting monopolies for all these things, the business of enterprise is going to find itself in an amazing tangle. If we find that society works at all, it is precisely due to the absence of such tangles. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Consider also what the above critic presumes about how markets work in a world without intellectual monopolies. Consumers all sit around wanting something and wanting to pay for it. It could be a new song or a cool painting or something as simple as a q-tip. Entrepreneurs all over the country know that consumers want these things but they refuse to bring them to market for fear of being copied by the next guy. As a result, everyone just sits around doing nothing. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is this really a realistic scenario? All experience suggests that in a vibrant economy, entrepreneurs go looking for unmet demands. This is what they live for. IP is not necessary to bring about this result, else there would not have been any economic growth in the entire world until recent years when IP began to its march to ubiquity. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]All these arguments really come to down to yet another market failure argument, the idea that unless the government comes to the rescue, market players will just sit around confused while the economy goes down the drain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]All market failure arguments have the appearance of plausibility about them. Let's say you have a poorly managed apartment unit with a porchlight that is out. Everyone would benefit from having the bulb changed. But if one person benefits, so does everyone. All dwellers enjoy the light and only one pays. That's not going to work, is it? No one would act. Except that at some point, someone comes along and befuddles the failure theorists by changing the lightbulb. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So it is with markets and innovation. It is just a plain fact that many products come to us every day that are not patented. Look at a Kleenex, I mean, a facial tissue. Any paper manufacturer can make one. The Kleenex company was first to make the big time, and it has stayed on top through relentless innovation in design. So we have fancy boxes of every shape and size, tissues with oil in them, tissues with smells, and various colors and things. The company is still on top. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Boldrin and Levine give the example of TravelPro, the suitcase with wheels. Every company can replicate it. But TravelPro stays on top through new design and marketing. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Everyone has to marvel at how Arm and Hammer stays on top of the baking soda market. Talk about easy to replicate. And yet the company practically has a market monopoly, and has held it for many decades. The innovation here too is relentless: toothpaste, deodorant, cleaning products, you name it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]You can try this at home. Think of any company that has an open-source product that continues to make money and stay up top: Tupperware, Red Hat, Band Aid, Firefox, Tylenol, Bayer, Hershey. It is a long list, nearly infinite. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The competition is fierce. How do they deal with it? The model is always the same. Get there first. Stay on top through marketing. Count on brand loyalty. Innovate. Explain your superiority. Never rest on your laurels. Move forward and watch the competition carefully. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is interesting because another market failure argument posits even that there is a reverse problem than the one used to defend IP. It suggests that the market has a "path dependence" problem, that once people get stuck on one technology or brand name, they have too high a hump to get over in order to move to one that is otherwise obviously superior. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Both can't be true. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The defenses of IP share a trait in common with all claims that the free market can't work. Hayek called it a kind of constructivism. We can't imagine how a market might solve a particular problem so we conclude that the market must fail in this instance. It's good to look outside the window and observe how the market solves the problem every day in ways we don't expect. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There are a thousand possibilities for how producers deal with being copied even in digital media. If we open the market up to competition, we will see more innovation in book publishing and movie making, as ever more goodies are piled on the consumer to earn loyalty and a range of options are made available. Consumers win, competitive producers win, and all without government privilege. What's not to like? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]IP: It's a Market Failure Argument[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]by Jeffrey A. Tucker[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the hundreds of emails I've received over the issue of intellectual property, the number one most common objection to doing without goes like this. We can't subject the matters to free market competition. Some innovations are too easy to copy. Just one look or listen and the producer's idea is taken from. Then another company that had nothing to do with bearing the costs of innovation will be able to reap the rewards. We have to have a period of monopoly if only to inspire people to innovate and bring things to market. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Now, consider first what a central-planning apparatus this entails. A vibrant and enterprising economy will consist of hundreds if not millions of innovations per day. Our work lives, no matter what field we are in, are all about doing things better, bringing better products to the world, stepping forward into a future in which ever better stuff is ever more affordable. That requires unrelenting innovation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]If you are to establish a government office to keep tabs on this activity, that alone is going to require massive bureaucracy. If the bureaucracy is charged with granting monopolies for all these things, the business of enterprise is going to find itself in an amazing tangle. If we find that society works at all, it is precisely due to the absence of such tangles. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Consider also what the above critic presumes about how markets work in a world without intellectual monopolies. Consumers all sit around wanting something and wanting to pay for it. It could be a new song or a cool painting or something as simple as a q-tip. Entrepreneurs all over the country know that consumers want these things but they refuse to bring them to market for fear of being copied by the next guy. As a result, everyone just sits around doing nothing. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is this really a realistic scenario? All experience suggests that in a vibrant economy, entrepreneurs go looking for unmet demands. This is what they live for. IP is not necessary to bring about this result, else there would not have been any economic growth in the entire world until recent years when IP began to its march to ubiquity. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]All these arguments really come to down to yet another market failure argument, the idea that unless the government comes to the rescue, market players will just sit around confused while the economy goes down the drain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]All market failure arguments have the appearance of plausibility about them. Let's say you have a poorly managed apartment unit with a porchlight that is out. Everyone would benefit from having the bulb changed. But if one person benefits, so does everyone. All dwellers enjoy the light and only one pays. That's not going to work, is it? No one would act. Except that at some point, someone comes along and befuddles the failure theorists by changing the lightbulb. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So it is with markets and innovation. It is just a plain fact that many products come to us every day that are not patented. Look at a Kleenex, I mean, a facial tissue. Any paper manufacturer can make one. The Kleenex company was first to make the big time, and it has stayed on top through relentless innovation in design. So we have fancy boxes of every shape and size, tissues with oil in them, tissues with smells, and various colors and things. The company is still on top. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Boldrin and Levine give the example of TravelPro, the suitcase with wheels. Every company can replicate it. But TravelPro stays on top through new design and marketing. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Everyone has to marvel at how Arm and Hammer stays on top of the baking soda market. Talk about easy to replicate. And yet the company practically has a market monopoly, and has held it for many decades. The innovation here too is relentless: toothpaste, deodorant, cleaning products, you name it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]You can try this at home. Think of any company that has an open-source product that continues to make money and stay up top: Tupperware, Red Hat, Band Aid, Firefox, Tylenol, Bayer, Hershey. It is a long list, nearly infinite. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The competition is fierce. How do they deal with it? The model is always the same. Get there first. Stay on top through marketing. Count on brand loyalty. Innovate. Explain your superiority. Never rest on your laurels. Move forward and watch the competition carefully. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is interesting because another market failure argument posits even that there is a reverse problem than the one used to defend IP. It suggests that the market has a "path dependence" problem, that once people get stuck on one technology or brand name, they have too high a hump to get over in order to move to one that is otherwise obviously superior. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Both can't be true. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The defenses of IP share a trait in common with all claims that the free market can't work. Hayek called it a kind of constructivism. We can't imagine how a market might solve a particular problem so we conclude that the market must fail in this instance. It's good to look outside the window and observe how the market solves the problem every day in ways we don't expect. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There are a thousand possibilities for how producers deal with being copied even in digital media. If we open the market up to competition, we will see more innovation in book publishing and movie making, as ever more goodies are piled on the consumer to earn loyalty and a range of options are made available. Consumers win, competitive producers win, and all without government privilege. What's not to like? [/FONT]
Paco Bedejo
Master
I would argue that the design is not patentable because it is "obvious" to anyone in the industry. Don't get your panties in a bunch. You're not the first person to come up with such an idea (as shown by others) & the 'knock-off' guy won't be the last to offer a crappier version cheaper than you do.
Welcome to the Free Market. Offer either a better product or a lower price & you won't have anything to worry about. If your product is better & more expensive than what people actually want to pay for, then I suppose the other guy's business model works better.
Last edited:
Sharktac and ntac are *******s that ripped off raven many times they are ****ing pigs hell the ntac guys even admitted to ripping off there design after winning there holster at a match
next show im going to pay there booth a visit and say hello and laugh maybe a boycott of the shark tac booth .
next show im going to pay there booth a visit and say hello and laugh maybe a boycott of the shark tac booth .
Since the dawn of time..
Innovations only takes a company so far before the people running it force customers to seek out another business that can either provide goods or services at either better; cost, quality, or customer service...
Every day more and more businesses are popping up to catch those customers...
I am all for someone protecting their ideas, and even standing up for it.
It really sucks that a good ole' fashioned pistol whip can't be dished out every time this happens. Honestly if it did, the gun show would be a pretty empty place..
Innovations only takes a company so far before the people running it force customers to seek out another business that can either provide goods or services at either better; cost, quality, or customer service...
Every day more and more businesses are popping up to catch those customers...
I am all for someone protecting their ideas, and even standing up for it.
It really sucks that a good ole' fashioned pistol whip can't be dished out every time this happens. Honestly if it did, the gun show would be a pretty empty place..
My point exactly....
I got this one right after reading this thread.... I wonder how Aimpoint feels about this? We don't care about them do we though?!
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/71985-primary_arms_aimpoint_clones.html
So does Primary Arms deserve the same boycott. Are they grouped in with the ******s as well?
A google search of kytac holsters shows reviews and test of thier kydex holster from 2000-2003.. A few of them look like Ravens that just needed a little refinement...
I got this one right after reading this thread.... I wonder how Aimpoint feels about this? We don't care about them do we though?!
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/accessories_and_gear/71985-primary_arms_aimpoint_clones.html
So does Primary Arms deserve the same boycott. Are they grouped in with the ******s as well?
A google search of kytac holsters shows reviews and test of thier kydex holster from 2000-2003.. A few of them look like Ravens that just needed a little refinement...
Last edited:
Sureshot129
Expert
Well I just ordered the original Vanguarg from raven
MACHINEGUN
Shooter
You should sue Shay... seriously.
U.S. Const., Art. I, sec. 8, cl. 6
The Congress shall have Power.....To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
The Founding Fathers, bunch of commies....
Now I have to go wash my brain.
Site Supporter
Members online
- tca1352
- Firehawk
- printcraft
- mmpsteve
- loudgroove
- bgcatty
- red_zr24x4
- WHITE_WOLFE
- Revdev86
- adam
- Rio
- slims2002
- Jim McKalip
- Mark-DuCo
- yeti rider
- Meatstick
- oze
- singlesix
- WebSnyper
- Blacknight179
- AndyF
- JayCo
- wtburnette
- Creedmoor
- RJW
- renauldo
- Gabriel
- grillak
- 223 Gunner
- Fordtough25
- indyblue
- meyer4589
- BeDome
- JRR85
- radar8756
- BigMoose
- Chance
- Ark
- cjacobs
- duff
- Michigan Slim
- steveIU
- Itchytriggerfinger
- Bstarkey_46947
- nucular
- pewpewINpewpew
- CZ Top
- Greg1
- shotgun131313
- PistolBob