OOPS!

[Comp]

I don't know how I feel about this. It does sound like he was arguing with a woman but if five men you dont know start to jump you who wouldn't pull their gun out. Pointing it at people was a really bad idea especially at the woman. But could anyone else say they wouldn't consider having their gun at a low ready while trying to get out of the bar.

I am sure there is more to the story, I am only going from what I read here.

 

[mk2ja]

This story is going to get pounced on by the gun grabbers.

This story is getting pounced on even by gun owners!



I don't see why all you are so quick to bash on him.

From what I can tell he got in an argument with a girl......... some people tried to break them up and he pulled a gun and pointed it....... not wise....

From what I can tell he was the agressor...... hard to jurify pulling your gun when you are the agressor.

It doesn't sound to me at all like he was the aggressor. Five guys approached him and started harassing him.

sounds like he shouldnt have had a gun, if he carried it becuase of events that had happened he shouldnt have been going back to the same place to start with..

Did it say he was back at the same place? I must have missed that. I just thought he said he had had problems in bars before, but I didn't see where he said it was that very one.

Sounds like this Dumb-*** has a pattern of stupidity.

Hope he changes his ways now!

Buckaroo

What pattern? Because he was unfortunate enough to have been beat up before?

He obviously didn't respect and appreciate the rights he had...now he will learn to live without some for a while.

How did he not have respect for it? From what little we have to read about it, it sounds to me that he had a reasonable suspicion that he was facing the threat of serious bodily harm, which as we know is the criteria for the use of force, even deadly force, under the IC.

It is possible that he could have just left. But for all we know, he couldn't risk turning his back on the group as he gathered his stuff to leave. Of course, under IC, you're under no duty to retreat, but that doesn't mean the best decision isn't to just leave anyway rather than face this kind of trouble.

He said he felt threatend, did the people have weapons,chaires,bottles,pool ques? Did they threaten him verbaly? Was he backed into a corner? Did he feel he could safely just walk away without being attacked by one or more of the people in the group?
The people who say he pointed the gun at them, did he realy point it at them or do they just think he did or are they anti gun and are just saying that. I'm not saying he didn't point it at somone. I'm just saying that he may not have waved or pointed it at those people that claim he did.
I'll wait to see what the courts decide. Inocent until Proven Guilty.

Thank you.

Come on, folks. We're all on the same "team" here. We're all gun owners, but that doesn't mean we'd all respond exactly in the same way to the same situations. However, that doesn't mean we're all doing it the wrong way. As fellow gun owners, we should be giving him the benefit of the doubt here. He felt threatened enough to need to draw his handgun. As H.T. said, I'd be skeptical that those other folks, who significantly outnumbered him, would make the claim that he was pointing the gun at them or "waving a gun around".

 

[bigg cheese]

I don't know how I feel about this. It does sound like he was arguing with a woman but if five men you dont know start to jump you who wouldn't pull their gun out.

The way it sounds, these five guys were in close proximity to the agressor. I'm not sure I'd draw if I had five guys that close. No way could I shoot'em all, but then again, which one would offer to be first?

 

[lovemachine]

I agree with all that. But the news said this morning that he was harrassing her. Then the group of guys came to break it up. I don't think he was that innocent. He should have just backed away, and left the bar. Granted he was probably scared, a group of guys coming at him. But he did start the confrontation.

 

[Z-Glock23]

Sounds like a good example of someone who isn't up to the responsibility of carrying a firearms. Too bad we don't have something like a "-100" face and only have a "+1".

 

[indytechnerd]

Ok, here's how this sounds to me. Keep in mind, we're talking about the People's Republik of Bloomington.

He's having words with a girl, that happens all the time, particularly in bars. A group of dudes decide to intervene. Are they friends of said girl? Does it take 5 dudes to get this guy to ease off? Dunno the answer to either. What we do know is that, in the middle of a conversation (heated or not), a group of people get in his face. Sadly the WTHR article is lacking a LOT of info. The HT blurb helps, but there's still a ton of details missing.

Where I think he has an issue is that he drew in the bar. If this same argument were occurring in the parking lot, he may have got off. Why do I say this? Let's imagine for a sec a range, set up with shoot/no-shoot targets. You've got 5 shoot targets arrayed in a 60º arc in front of you, and 150 no-shoot targets surrounding them and you. If you're trying to cover all 5 targets, there's no way you're NOT going to sweep one of the no-shoots. Once he swept someone in the crowd who was not part of this, and they make a statement to the cops that he was 'pointing that thing at me', he's gigged based on SingleStackSig's post above. He's good pointing the weapon at the dudes, but not the other 150 people in the bar.

Am I failing in this thought? yea or nay?

Sadly, I think this is going to be a big sandwich, and he gets the first bite. A really good lawyer might get him off as it stands, but he really jumped up the escalation ladder and hurt our collective rep as gun owners. On the campus carry subject, Kilroy's sports is not on campus, in fact it's a few blocks away. If campus carry comes into play on this, it's a stretch.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

ITN, according to the HT article posted, he also hit with the gun one of the guys that was trying to cool the situation down.

 

[dburkhead]

I agree with all that. But the news said this morning that he was harrassing her. Then the group of guys came to break it up. I don't think he was that innocent. He should have just backed away, and left the bar. Granted he was probably scared, a group of guys coming at him. But he did start the confrontation.

In my experience what the news says is hardly the most reliable of indicators of anything. On more than one occassion the news has reported on events at which I was present. In every case what they reported did not match what I saw and heard.

Basically, just because the news reported it that way doesn't mean that that's the way it actually went down.

 

[BloodEclipse]

In my experience what the news says is hardly the most reliable of indicators of anything. On more than one occassion the news has reported on events at which I was present. In every case what they reported did not match what I saw and heard.

Basically, just because the news reported it that way doesn't mean that that's the way it actually went down.

Same experience for me.

I think he is toast though.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property

e) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c), a person is not justified in using force if:
(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;
(2) the person provokes unlawful action by another person with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.

 

[femurphy77]

Even if the guy had a legitimate reason to pull his weapon he is hosed; a bar full of sheep are all going to band together to make him look like the bad guy. Hypothetically speaking, there won't be a single witness that saw one of the five guys grab him by the arm and another of the five guys pull a knife to threaten him before he finally drew. None of us were there so don't hang him yet.

 

[Cheapdiesel]

Hope he has money for a "good" lawyer

 

[Tactical Dave]

I agree with all that. But the news said this morning that he was harrassing her. Then the group of guys came to break it up. I don't think he was that innocent. He should have just backed away, and left the bar. Granted he was probably scared, a group of guys coming at him. But he did start the confrontation.

That's the way I am seeing it right now.....

 

[SootKing]

thats a shame, sounds like he had a few too many drinks and just was just angry that a bunch of guys were talking smack to him...they probably threatened to kick his whatever if he didnt leave and he probably didnt...so he just pulled his gun. he should have just left the bar when the 5 guys approached him and looked like a "pu$$" for a minute rather than face a bunch of felonies now. sounds like it could happen to anyone, this guy just had the balls to pull his gun..which he should not have that was stupid

 

[deadsquirrel]

I go to that bar all the time carrying (concealed) and would NEVER pull my gun even in a situation like that. gives us a bad name IMO. unless your life is being threatened there is no reason for that. especially in a busy bar with many innocent bystanders

 

[calcot7]

At least no "Heros" tried to take the weapon away from him.

 

[NateIU10]

I go to that bar all the time carrying (concealed) and would NEVER pull my gun even in a situation like that. gives us a bad name IMO. unless your life is being threatened there is no reason for that. especially in a busy bar with many innocent bystanders

I've carried into Sport's a few times too, no issues.

Without more facts, I can't claim to know if they guy was in the wrong or not. Lots of people ready to hang him though.

 

[ATM]

...Lots of people ready to hang him though.

Don't pull your noose unless you're ready to snap some necks.

 

[r.o.b.o.]

Hard to tell if he was in the wrong or not. Would be interesting to hear the full story. How did he hit one of the guys and the other 4 didn't beat him.

 

[chezuki]

Hard to tell if he was in the wrong or not. Would be interesting to hear the full story. How did he hit one of the guys and the other 4 didn't beat him.

He had a gun...

 

[LPMan59]

as usual, even gun owners crucify one of their own after relying only on the accounts of the anti-gun media.

having words with a woman, even an argument, doesnt mean 5 guys need to break it up. my experience in college is that these bar hound pussies travel in packs, so it really wouldnt surprise me if they escalated the situation. i have never been in a fight in my life and probably couldn't beat up most women....so if 5 frat boys told me they were going to "**** me up", etc, you're damn right i'd be afraid of severe bodily harm.