New Indoor Range Opening in Westfield

[Jarhead77]

They're Just bragging if they don't invite us to shoot in their back yards!!!

Must be nice!

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I am curious about something I'd like some of you to respond to. (This is a serious question, I'm not arguing, I'm looking for some honest feedback).

For those of you that have stated that you understand Tim's position of not letting people draw from the holster and shoot while standing in the bays, why do feel that action is dangerous/inappropriate/risky or whatever it is that you feel leads you to believe that it is less safe that picking the gun up off of the shelf in the bay and shooting it?

Is it because of the where the muzzle is pointed? Or COULD be pointed? Is it because someone might get in a hurry and shoot themselves?

When you go to a class where everyone is a stranger on the line next to you and you are drawing and shooting, why does that make you feel more safe? Or does it?

I'm very interested in this feedback. I've been a firearms instructor for 11 years now and I've taught in the US and several other countries and have never had students before express concern over drawing and holstering being a dangerous or risky procedure. In my opinion, it's arguably the most important thing to practice because in a real situation, if you can't get your weapon out and on target efficiently, it won't matter at all what an excellent marksman you were in an uber-controlled environment.


I don't like this direction that the ranges are taking because the next logical step is for the RSO to load your weapon for you and hand it to you to let you shoot it. That would be even MORE safe by taking away even more variables a shooter has to do something wrong.

This might rankle some feathers here, but I feel like eliminating all risks from shooting guns also eliminates all training value. I can make a range so safe that a student gets absolutely nothing out of it. If all you ever want to do is shoot a few rounds after a dinner out with the wife at some paper, then I'm perfectly fine with their rules. But if you are shooting because you want to learn how to defend yourself in real life, then marksmanship is just one of many, many, many components that go into defending your life.

It's sort of a personal crusade of mine to try to stop this false sense of security that shooters have in their abilities to defend themselves. Lazy habits, unrealistic training, etc. --that type of stuff isn't making us better shooters, I'd argue a lot of our "practice" is making us worse.

I agree with you about this whole issue, but if anyone knows of an indoor range where the proprietors allow folks to practice their draw stroke/presentation, I'd like to hear where it is; I've never seen an indoor range where that was allowed; not here nor anywhere else I've been. Just offhand, I can't say what the differences between doing so at an indoor range - or even an outdoor range like the Atterbury complex - and doing so at an unsupervised range may be in terms of personal and business liability, but I'm certain there are some significant legal issues which business owners must address when considering this question.

 

[hornadylnl]

They're Just bragging if they don't invite us to shoot in their back yards!!!

Must be nice!

Easy peasy. Buy your own.

 

[Expatriated]

I agree with you about this whole issue, but if anyone knows of an indoor range where the proprietors allow folks to practice their draw stroke/presentation, I'd like to hear where it is; I've never seen an indoor range where that was allowed; not here nor anywhere else I've been. Just offhand, I can't say what the differences between doing so at an indoor range - or even an outdoor range like the Atterbury complex - and doing so at an unsupervised range may be in terms of personal and business liability, but I'm certain there are some significant legal issues which business owners must address when considering this question.

That would be something I'd like to hear more about from business owners--do insurance companies dictate safety rules? I realize they have to have liability insurance but so do some very high speed training companies that allow a LOT more advanced techniques than simple drawstroke. But, I wonder if liability insurance companies that insure indoor ranges have a prescribed list of rules they require before they insure. If that's the case, there's probably no way around it.

But, I'm suspecting is less of the above and more of those imaginary safety rules that are in addition to the 4 Rules and do nothing to add safety, but do a lot to take away realistic training value.

Thanks for your response.

 

[hornadylnl]

That would be something I'd like to hear more about from business owners--do insurance companies dictate safety rules? I realize they have to have liability insurance but so do some very high speed training companies that allow a LOT more advanced techniques than simple drawstroke. But, I wonder if liability insurance companies that insure indoor ranges have a prescribed list of rules they require before they insure. If that's the case, there's probably no way around it.

But, I'm suspecting is less of the above and more of those imaginary safety rules that are in addition to the 4 Rules and do nothing to add safety, but do a lot to take away realistic training value.

Thanks for your response.

I'm guessing it has more to do with preventing a negligence lawsuit from the bystander shot by QuickDraw.

 

[Jarhead77]

Easy peasy. Buy your own.

Easier said than done!

 

[hornadylnl]

Easier said than done!

Just be at the mercy of others then.

 

[Expatriated]

I'm guessing it has more to do with preventing a negligence lawsuit from the bystander shot by QuickDraw.

Haha. I hope they aren't relying on that to prevent a negligence lawsuit! A rule, no matter how silly, is not going to prevent a lawsuit. It MAY help them defend it, but it certainly won't stop it.

 

[hornadylnl]

Haha. I hope they aren't relying on that to prevent a negligence lawsuit! A rule, no matter how silly, is not going to prevent a lawsuit. It MAY help them defend it, but it certainly won't stop it.

And you're hitting the nail on the head as to why I and other land owners don't let others hunt and shoot on our properties. We aren't a legal lottery for the benefit of others.

 

[Cj52racers]

Well, guys I stopped by the range today to sight in a new scope for my .22. As with the last time I was there, the staff was all extremely nice and helpful (they also had in a new and gorgeous keltec bullpup 12 gauge). 25 yards is a little shorter than I would like but the range and stalls are nice. I also saw something I did not expect with regards to their rules ( the one we have all been debating). There was a guy there with a handgun he was carrying (no case) to shoot on the range. They gave him a Tupperware container to remove the firearm and place in the container before heading to the range. They asked him to case it next time.

Seemed odd that if the rule is no unholstering, to do this. Just thought I would share with you guys. Also, even though I have already said it, the staff are a great group. I'll probably head back with it being five minutes away. Just wish some of the rules were different.

 

[SMiller]

Well, guys I stopped by the range today to sight in a new scope for my .22. As with the last time I was there, the staff was all extremely nice and helpful (they also had in a new and gorgeous keltec bullpup 12 gauge). 25 yards is a little shorter than I would like but the range and stalls are nice. I also saw something I did not expect with regards to their rules ( the one we have all been debating). There was a guy there with a handgun he was carrying (no case) to shoot on the range. They gave him a Tupperware container to remove the firearm and place in the container before heading to the range. They asked him to case it next time.

Seemed odd that if the rule is no unholstering, to do this. Just thought I would share with you guys. Also, even though I have already said it, the staff are a great group. I'll probably head back with it being five minutes away. Just wish some of the rules were different.

So a loaded firearm is safer flopping around in a tupperware container then it is in a holster? Keeps getting better and better...

 

[ljk]

been there done that, but it was at a range in Los Angeles.

 

[rjklein4470]

Guys I have been to this range and it is really nice and the air is very clean. About the rules, keep in mind they are just open, and I am sure there were some people that were not very happy about having a gun range in their back yard. So the owner is just trying to stay open and protect his investment and run a nice business.

 

[Expatriated]

And you're hitting the nail on the head as to why I and other land owners don't let others hunt and shoot on our properties. We aren't a legal lottery for the benefit of others.

Yeah, good point.

 

[rjklein4470]

So a loaded firearm is safer flopping around in a tupperware container then it is in a holster? Keeps getting better and better...

I called Tim to ask about the rule, and here is what he told me.

They are all for you carrying a gun in a holster, however they do not want you using that gun on the line. So in other words if you plan to shoot your CCW, they want you to unload it in your car and put it in your gun bag.

 

[wolfman]

I would still like to know why they require jacketed and ban bare lead.

 

[drillsgt]

I called Tim to ask about the rule, and here is what he told me.

They are all for you carrying a gun in a holster, however they do not want you using that gun on the line. So in other words if you plan to shoot your CCW, they want you to unload it in your car and put it in your gun bag.

So what's their fear, that you'll ND while unholstering or holstering or do they even know why they made the rule? Did they just see some other range doing it and adopt it? Hopefully as the range matures they'll rethink this.

 

[frenchiectfd2203]

So you can't bring in your holstered weapon even if it is unloaded? You have to bag what your bringing? Hmmm... Ok, well his range his rules...

 

[Cj52racers]

I called Tim to ask about the rule, and here is what he told me.

They are all for you carrying a gun in a holster, however they do not want you using that gun on the line. So in other words if you plan to shoot your CCW, they want you to unload it in your car and put it in your gun bag.

Don't they also have a rule against having a firearm out in the parking lot though?

 

[Glock19]

So to prevent someone from running with scissors (shooting from holster) they wont even let us WALK with scissors (remove our EDC safely in the bay to place it on the counter) ? Zero tolerance FTW!

Just because you know how to do it safely doesn't mean everyone else will be. You want to act like its an outdoor range, go to an outdoor range and draw from your holster. Shooting the concrete at your feet is way different than shooting the dirt at your feet...

The issue is not with practice. While I do not have an LTCH yet, the problem with their policy is that it is written so that you can not unholster a carry weapon to even use at the range. I understand not wanting people to practice their draw, but I do not like that LTCH holders have to remove the firearm at home and case it before heading to the range.

No one said you had to do it at home. The rules say off the property, Although they gave some guy a tupperware container to go out to his car and remove it there when I went.