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New Indoor Range Opening in Westfield
- Thread starter GuyRelford
- Start date
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venenoindy
Master
I stop by to check them out and the firearm prices are not bad, M&P pro long slide 9mm $617.00 vs $600.00 the average in Indy.
DoctorThunder
Plinker
- Apr 2, 2013
- 61
- 8
Does anyone know if they will let you pick up your brass? I've heard some ranges have rules that say that the brass is theirs once it hits the floor.
Just got done shooting here and I asked about a lot of the rules people are complaining about. Drawing from the hip is not allowed because they are focused on SAFETY. Think of it as more of a training range and not some outdoor yahoo place. Go to a range anywhere else that allows EVERYONE to draw from the hip and count how many times you get a gun pointed at you. Not a bad rule IMO. The ammo thing is you have to buy theirs because they have a brand new range and don't want some yahoo shooting tracers and everything else that just burnt down that range in Arkansas. They cant inspect everyones ammo all day long. The 2.23 ammo at Tim's isn't bad priced. I thought It was cheaper than Walmart and EVERY other range Ive been to. Why not buy it there if its cheaper than Gander Mt or Dicks? Its all about location too. Compare the air inside there to popguns or something. When you leave Tims you aren't spitting out black tar for the rest of the day. I talked to the owner and he said they are up to Navy specs. You cant even taste or see much of anything floating in the air. How many other ranges can say that? They let me police my 2.23 brass that was in my area. They just don't want you walking down ten stalls picking up brass.
Ironically, this is the exact opposite of how I feel. I can stand high prices, having to buy their ammo, etc, but to me, it's not really a training place. It's just a place to maybe practice some marksmanship but really just to test a new gun or something. Training to me implies practicing as you fight as realistically as possible. No way you can do that without drawing from the holster and other things. For that reason, to me, Tim's is just a place to go goof off for a while. My training will have to be conducted other places.
I think it's geared toward the novice beginner. Sort of the putt-putt of firearms ranges. Something I can take my 9 year old to to shoot the .22 for awhile.
But, I hear there's one in Carmel coming soon that will be good!
Oh, I understand about drawing from the hip not being allowed. But as I read the rules, I cant even shoot my EDC at their range without disarming myself before I reach their facility and placing it in a carrying case, unloaded. To me that is unacceptable.
I wont begrudge a range for not allowing the practice draw and shoot. I FULLY understand that. Thats what a simunitions facility or an IDPA range is for. But to tell me that I'm not even considered safe to EVER remove my loaded weapon from its holster, even in the safety of my bay and then reholster my loaded weapon at the end of my session for the drive home is frankly, offensive. They go out of their way to say "you may have your loaded gun, but it NEVER comes out of the holster", "you may not holster a loaded weapon", "you cant handle guns in the parking lot.", and "if you want to shoot a gun it must be brought in unloaded and in a case". Thats pretty clear cut right there that they dont truly welcome those that EDC because its impossible for us to NOT break the rules. They obviously only want casual, non-carrying customers to shoot the guns they keep in the nightstand there. If not they would have made a rule of "no taking practice shots from a holstered starting position." and not gone out of their way to stop EDCers to practice with their EDC. (without jumping through all kinds of hoops to make them happy)
They may not have intended to stop their customers from walking in, removing their EDC in the bay, prep the pistol with target ammo, spend their hour shooting, then reload with the defense loads, reholster and walk out, but they sure did.
I wont begrudge a range for not allowing the practice draw and shoot. I FULLY understand that. Thats what a simunitions facility or an IDPA range is for. But to tell me that I'm not even considered safe to EVER remove my loaded weapon from its holster, even in the safety of my bay and then reholster my loaded weapon at the end of my session for the drive home is frankly, offensive. They go out of their way to say "you may have your loaded gun, but it NEVER comes out of the holster", "you may not holster a loaded weapon", "you cant handle guns in the parking lot.", and "if you want to shoot a gun it must be brought in unloaded and in a case". Thats pretty clear cut right there that they dont truly welcome those that EDC because its impossible for us to NOT break the rules. They obviously only want casual, non-carrying customers to shoot the guns they keep in the nightstand there. If not they would have made a rule of "no taking practice shots from a holstered starting position." and not gone out of their way to stop EDCers to practice with their EDC. (without jumping through all kinds of hoops to make them happy)
They may not have intended to stop their customers from walking in, removing their EDC in the bay, prep the pistol with target ammo, spend their hour shooting, then reload with the defense loads, reholster and walk out, but they sure did.
.
I lIke it!
Went for the first time this past Monday. (MLK Day) Brought my range bag with a M&P 45, Ruger LCP, and a Browning Buckmark. I reload the 45 and the 380. Had some jacketed 45 loads and WWB 380.
Got there around 1PM. They were crowded but seemed to efficiently move folks through their process. Along with 6 others, I watched a short safety video. Afterwards I filled out the liability info, provided my drivers license, and opted for 1 large target. I was assigned a lane with a numbered necklace to match.
The firing line was, well, fine. No surprises. I was able to police up my own 45 and 380. I could have been greedy because the 2 lanes to my left were both firing 45 and 380. Not reloaders, they said "Take what you want". I figured the business probably profits a little from brass sales so I only collected what I thought was the right amount of "my brass". Two of the shooters (2 couples) seemed to be "new shooters" so I thought it was appropriate that the RSO's loitered at our end of the line. Fine by me...
Pros:
Cons:
Additional- I've followed this thread with all the discussion about carrying and practice and holstering, and etc, etc. I carry and probably should practice. If nothing else I'll practice just drawing from an IWB holster. Personally I think allowing "practice" is just begging for a negligent discharge or worse. As a business that has to buy insurance I'm sure such an event would be tough on the bottom line.
Lastly, I'm glad to see this type of business in the Westfield-Carmel area. The focus on safety is fine with me. I hope the business makes money.
Good stuff!
Pappy
Went for the first time this past Monday. (MLK Day) Brought my range bag with a M&P 45, Ruger LCP, and a Browning Buckmark. I reload the 45 and the 380. Had some jacketed 45 loads and WWB 380.
Got there around 1PM. They were crowded but seemed to efficiently move folks through their process. Along with 6 others, I watched a short safety video. Afterwards I filled out the liability info, provided my drivers license, and opted for 1 large target. I was assigned a lane with a numbered necklace to match.
The firing line was, well, fine. No surprises. I was able to police up my own 45 and 380. I could have been greedy because the 2 lanes to my left were both firing 45 and 380. Not reloaders, they said "Take what you want". I figured the business probably profits a little from brass sales so I only collected what I thought was the right amount of "my brass". Two of the shooters (2 couples) seemed to be "new shooters" so I thought it was appropriate that the RSO's loitered at our end of the line. Fine by me...
Pros:
- Safety briefing video. Great for new shooters and good review for anyone. Nice quiet classroom to watch it-
- Staff- I thought the counter guys were great. Professional and thorough- even with a crowd.
- Range- it all worked. No residual "stuff" floating in the air that I could see. Good operation and interaction from RSO's Police my own brass
- No smoking building. Thanks from a non-smoker. 'nuff said
Cons:
- Not wild about buying the targets. But I understand that will control random litter? Or ??
- Not wild about "no cast bullets" Not an expert but maybe the cast lead clogs up the air filtration system too quickly?? I shoot about 75% cast stuff. Not a show stopper, just inconvenient. Note- my ammo was not inspected. I complied- shot only jacketed stuff.
- Cost- not a con but more of an observation. I could drive down to Beech Grove and save $10-20 I live 10 minutes away from Tim's. So, I'll spend that drive time shooting. The gas cost alone would be at least a few bucks.
Additional- I've followed this thread with all the discussion about carrying and practice and holstering, and etc, etc. I carry and probably should practice. If nothing else I'll practice just drawing from an IWB holster. Personally I think allowing "practice" is just begging for a negligent discharge or worse. As a business that has to buy insurance I'm sure such an event would be tough on the bottom line.
Lastly, I'm glad to see this type of business in the Westfield-Carmel area. The focus on safety is fine with me. I hope the business makes money.
Good stuff!
Pappy
The issue is not with practice. While I do not have an LTCH yet, the problem with their policy is that it is written so that you can not unholster a carry weapon to even use at the range. I understand not wanting people to practice their draw, but I do not like that LTCH holders have to remove the firearm at home and case it before heading to the range.
I am curious about something I'd like some of you to respond to. (This is a serious question, I'm not arguing, I'm looking for some honest feedback).
For those of you that have stated that you understand Tim's position of not letting people draw from the holster and shoot while standing in the bays, why do feel that action is dangerous/inappropriate/risky or whatever it is that you feel leads you to believe that it is less safe that picking the gun up off of the shelf in the bay and shooting it?
Is it because of the where the muzzle is pointed? Or COULD be pointed? Is it because someone might get in a hurry and shoot themselves?
When you go to a class where everyone is a stranger on the line next to you and you are drawing and shooting, why does that make you feel more safe? Or does it?
I'm very interested in this feedback. I've been a firearms instructor for 11 years now and I've taught in the US and several other countries and have never had students before express concern over drawing and holstering being a dangerous or risky procedure. In my opinion, it's arguably the most important thing to practice because in a real situation, if you can't get your weapon out and on target efficiently, it won't matter at all what an excellent marksman you were in an uber-controlled environment.
I don't like this direction that the ranges are taking because the next logical step is for the RSO to load your weapon for you and hand it to you to let you shoot it. That would be even MORE safe by taking away even more variables a shooter has to do something wrong.
This might rankle some feathers here, but I feel like eliminating all risks from shooting guns also eliminates all training value. I can make a range so safe that a student gets absolutely nothing out of it. If all you ever want to do is shoot a few rounds after a dinner out with the wife at some paper, then I'm perfectly fine with their rules. But if you are shooting because you want to learn how to defend yourself in real life, then marksmanship is just one of many, many, many components that go into defending your life.
It's sort of a personal crusade of mine to try to stop this false sense of security that shooters have in their abilities to defend themselves. Lazy habits, unrealistic training, etc. --that type of stuff isn't making us better shooters, I'd argue a lot of our "practice" is making us worse.
For those of you that have stated that you understand Tim's position of not letting people draw from the holster and shoot while standing in the bays, why do feel that action is dangerous/inappropriate/risky or whatever it is that you feel leads you to believe that it is less safe that picking the gun up off of the shelf in the bay and shooting it?
Is it because of the where the muzzle is pointed? Or COULD be pointed? Is it because someone might get in a hurry and shoot themselves?
When you go to a class where everyone is a stranger on the line next to you and you are drawing and shooting, why does that make you feel more safe? Or does it?
I'm very interested in this feedback. I've been a firearms instructor for 11 years now and I've taught in the US and several other countries and have never had students before express concern over drawing and holstering being a dangerous or risky procedure. In my opinion, it's arguably the most important thing to practice because in a real situation, if you can't get your weapon out and on target efficiently, it won't matter at all what an excellent marksman you were in an uber-controlled environment.
I don't like this direction that the ranges are taking because the next logical step is for the RSO to load your weapon for you and hand it to you to let you shoot it. That would be even MORE safe by taking away even more variables a shooter has to do something wrong.
This might rankle some feathers here, but I feel like eliminating all risks from shooting guns also eliminates all training value. I can make a range so safe that a student gets absolutely nothing out of it. If all you ever want to do is shoot a few rounds after a dinner out with the wife at some paper, then I'm perfectly fine with their rules. But if you are shooting because you want to learn how to defend yourself in real life, then marksmanship is just one of many, many, many components that go into defending your life.
It's sort of a personal crusade of mine to try to stop this false sense of security that shooters have in their abilities to defend themselves. Lazy habits, unrealistic training, etc. --that type of stuff isn't making us better shooters, I'd argue a lot of our "practice" is making us worse.
Expat, *I* dont agree with the no holster rule, but I *DO* understand that the risk is slightly elevated if people are rushing for the fastest draw possible and ND-ing into the floor, their leg, the counter in the bay, hitting the underside of the counter as the gun is raised because they were too close, etc. Because of that risk I also understand why a range would ban the process. I dont agree with it but its their right to do so. Its also my right not to go. Other ranges allow for drawing from the holster, but they make it a point to warn you its not a race, mind the counter, etc.
Personally, my biggest beef is the absolutism that CJ52 reinforced. Dont tell me I cant even remove it at ALL EVEN in the safety of the bay. Thats ridiculous. It strikes me as them trying to pay lip service to us as EDCers and tolerate us by telling us we arent banned because we have a gun, but at the same time make it impossible to carry AND use the range. Almost like they understood "if we make this a no loaded guns store we will lose business, so lets make it LOOK like we are cool with it."
I kinda wonder how much of a hand the Westfield town council had in these rules?
It almost sounds like either insurance or zoning had a hand in crafting it to make it APPEAR as safe as possible. You know, "We will approve your zoning/insurance request after we have seen how you will handle safety. <reads first draft of Tims rules> No, we dont like these rules. They need to be stricter or we cannot approve it. For example, we dont want to even be able to SEE a gun in the lot, guns for the range should never be loaded while on the property except on the range, etc."
Personally, my biggest beef is the absolutism that CJ52 reinforced. Dont tell me I cant even remove it at ALL EVEN in the safety of the bay. Thats ridiculous. It strikes me as them trying to pay lip service to us as EDCers and tolerate us by telling us we arent banned because we have a gun, but at the same time make it impossible to carry AND use the range. Almost like they understood "if we make this a no loaded guns store we will lose business, so lets make it LOOK like we are cool with it."
I kinda wonder how much of a hand the Westfield town council had in these rules?
It almost sounds like either insurance or zoning had a hand in crafting it to make it APPEAR as safe as possible. You know, "We will approve your zoning/insurance request after we have seen how you will handle safety. <reads first draft of Tims rules> No, we dont like these rules. They need to be stricter or we cannot approve it. For example, we dont want to even be able to SEE a gun in the lot, guns for the range should never be loaded while on the property except on the range, etc."
Anyone ever been to Eagle Creek ? They have the same rule there for safety sake. If you want to fire your carry weapon, you must have it in a range bag or it's case when you enter the range. You'd be surprised how many newbies come in holstered and cover half of the ranges participants with their muzzle because they have no muzzle awareness whatsoever.
So, to compensate for the "moro.." Er a...new shooters....and to keep the patrons and staff safe, the rule is in effect. It's really very inconvenient I know, but a necessary evil to some ranges.
So, to compensate for the "moro.." Er a...new shooters....and to keep the patrons and staff safe, the rule is in effect. It's really very inconvenient I know, but a necessary evil to some ranges.
They ABSOLUTELY intend to stop you from doing this. They have the same rules there for everyone, and if they let you do it then they are gonna let that first timer do it. They arent unarming you at all, they said you can carry in the store just dont unholster. So carry something different while your practicing with your EDC.Oh, I understand about drawing from the hip not being allowed. But as I read the rules, I cant even shoot my EDC at their range without disarming myself before I reach their facility and placing it in a carrying case, unloaded. To me that is unacceptable.
I wont begrudge a range for not allowing the practice draw and shoot. I FULLY understand that. Thats what a simunitions facility or an IDPA range is for. But to tell me that I'm not even considered safe to EVER remove my loaded weapon from its holster, even in the safety of my bay and then reholster my loaded weapon at the end of my session for the drive home is frankly, offensive. They go out of their way to say "you may have your loaded gun, but it NEVER comes out of the holster", "you may not holster a loaded weapon", "you cant handle guns in the parking lot.", and "if you want to shoot a gun it must be brought in unloaded and in a case". Thats pretty clear cut right there that they dont truly welcome those that EDC because its impossible for us to NOT break the rules. They obviously only want casual, non-carrying customers to shoot the guns they keep in the nightstand there. If not they would have made a rule of "no taking practice shots from a holstered starting position." and not gone out of their way to stop EDCers to practice with their EDC. (without jumping through all kinds of hoops to make them happy)
They may not have intended to stop their customers from walking in, removing their EDC in the bay, prep the pistol with target ammo, spend their hour shooting, then reload with the defense loads, reholster and walk out, but they sure did.
So to prevent someone from running with scissors (shooting from holster) they wont even let us WALK with scissors (remove our EDC safely in the bay to place it on the counter) ? Zero tolerance FTW!
[video=youtube;RmwqnqL3Hbg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmwqnqL3Hbg[/video]
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