ND at Boone County Courthouse

[Kirk Freeman]

Define what an accident is as put forward by the media?

Unintentional discharges, they can be accidental (e.g. mechanical failure of the weapon, slam fire, weapon discharges upon safety release, etc.) or negligent.

 

[HoughMade]

Unintentional discharges, they can be accidental (e.g. mechanical failure of the weapon, slam fire, weapon discharges upon safety release, etc.) or negligent.

I learned on INGO that accidental and negligent are mutually exclusive.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yes, its only a matter of time before you have one. Ive had one.

Appleseed shoot. Overly sensitive trigger. Rifle went boom before I was ready. Still hit the paper, but it was not my intention for the rifle to fire at that moment. (I have since replaced that trigger spring with one that was a bit stiffer)

And Seagull, by your metric, we should all also turn in our driver's licenses because we admit that its possible that we will have a motor vehicle collision at some point in our lives. I dont buy it.

 

[seagullplayer]

And Seagull, by your metric, we should all also turn in our driver's licenses because we admit that its possible that we will have a motor vehicle collision at some point in our lives. I dont buy it.

If we think all we can do is wait for it to happen to us, those people should stop driving. BTW it is nothing like that, it is a very poor comparison. Is a drunk going to run a stop sign and make you pull the trigger on your firearm while you have it pointed in dangerous direction? Is someone going to make you hand your loaded firearm to someone that has no intention of shooting it?

Why would you own a gun if you think you are bond to have an accident with it?

By and large it seems that most of the people that say it will happen to everyone, are the people that it has happened too. If it happens to me it is MY fault. So I can't believe I have no control in that situation.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people." I still believe that.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If we think all we can do is wait for it to happen to us, those people should stop driving. BTW it is nothing like that, it is a very poor comparison. Is a drunk going to run a stop sign and make you pull the trigger on your firearm while you have it pointed in dangerous direction? Is someone going to make you hand your loaded firearm to someone that has no intention of shooting it?

Why would you own a gun if you think you are bond to have an accident with it?

By and large it seems that most of the people that say it will happen to everyone, are the people that it has happened too. If it happens to me it is MY fault. So I can't believe I have no control in that situation.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people." I still believe that.

You are missing the point. It's not about shifting the blame. Its about remembering you aren't infallible and planning for the time you screw the pooch. An AD down range is an AD but not a tragedy.

I don't plan to crash...but I wear my seat belt in case I screw up and do. I don't plan to AD, but I'm careful with my muzzle in case I do.

 

[seagullplayer]

You are missing the point. It's not about shifting the blame. Its about remembering you aren't infallible and planning for the time you screw the pooch. An AD down range is an AD but not a tragedy.

I don't plan to crash...but I wear my seat belt in case I screw up and do. I don't plan to AD, but I'm careful with my muzzle in case I do.

I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that is why you follow the rules.
It up to you to follow them. People get hurt when we don't.

If you have a AD down range it is the rule that had you pointed down range when it happened.

How does that fit the guy in the story?

 

[JettaKnight]

I was on shift when this happened. This officer is a heck of a good officer and it's an unfortunate incident. However he shouldn't be condoned as this could happen to any one of us.

I think you mean:
Castigated
Criticized
Chastised
Chided

 

[JettaKnight]

This is unexpected. Boone County officers are very well trained with respect to firearms, especially compared to most other police & sheriff's departments.

You mean by the Sheriff?

“An accidental discharge at any time is thoroughly investigated,” [Sheriff] Nielsen said. “It could happen to anyone, and in this case it was a veteran deputy.”

No. Just no.

First, it wasn't an accident. If anyone tells you this was - do not accept training from this individual. As the leader, he should step up and call a spade a spade instead of trying to downplay this and protect the offender. Because there was an offender. This would not "happen to anyone" that knew better than to coonfinger a gun in a courthouse.

 

[Hookeye]

That is why one follows the rules, so when it happens the property damage is minimal (inclusive of ruined underwear).

Only an idiot thinks it'll never happen.

A smart person recognizes the chance of mechanical and or human error and works damn hard to avoid such an incident.

Of course the pros.........who have been formally trained, and carry/carried weapons as part of their job duty...............they get a pass when they go BOOM and "don't know what happened".

I have had a mechanical failure and seen a couple of others. It does happen. In those instances, bullets went down range and downward.

Because the rules were followed.

 

[JettaKnight]

There are two types of gun owners (among several actually). Those that have had negligent discharges and those who haven't yet.

Emphasis added.

Defeatist attitude - I do not accept.

I do not have to have an ND.

So you've never removed your gun from its holster to show someone?

No.

Is it unsafe to do so?

Yes.


I won't join that inevitable group of ND'ers if I keep it in my holster.

"I'm thinking about carrying a gun like yours. Can I see that?"
"Yes you can see it; you have eyes. Did you mean, 'may I handle it?', because no, you may not. I have a strict about removing from my holster. Sorry."

 

[Hookeye]

I've taken my carry rig off for others to see.
But I went to a safe area, by myself, cleared it, and then brought it out.
And when it was to be made ready, went to safe area and then did that.
No big deal.

No excuse for unsafe in that regard, when the range is only a few ft away.

 

[chipbennett]

There are, what, 100 million firearms owners in the US? (Ballpark) That idea that there are 100 million negligent discharges waiting to happen is ludicrous to me.

There are people who believe that it can happen to them - and as such, take due diligence to exercise firearms-handling discipline, and heed the warning/lessons from stories such as this thread's OP. And then there are people who believe it can't happen to them - and don't take such due diligence.

One group has a much higher chance than the other of causing a negligent discharge at some point in their lives.

Not causing a negligent discharge starts with the recognition that each one of us is fallible and prone to making mistakes. But the likelihood of causing a negligent discharge is a function of what one does in response to that initial recognition.

 

[JettaKnight]

I learned on INGO that accidental and negligent are mutually exclusive.

True. But not in the mass media. These are the same people that report "Vehicle accidents" instead of the more appropriate "vehicle collision."

Only an idiot thinks it'll never happen.

Better: Only an idiot thinks it can never happen.

It does not have to happen. There is no certainty or inevitability - it's not death or taxes.

A smart person recognizes the chance of mechanical and or human error and works damn hard to avoid such an incident.

...

I have had a mechanical failure and seen a couple of others. It does happen. In those instances, bullets went down range and downward.

Because the rules were followed.

Ditto. My round went downrange.

 

[JettaKnight]

[video=youtube;puK5CwThaq4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puK5CwThaq4[/video]

 

[BE Mike]

That is why one follows the rules, so when it happens the property damage is minimal (inclusive of ruined underwear).

Only an idiot thinks it'll never happen.

A smart person recognizes the chance of mechanical and or human error and works damn hard to avoid such an incident.

Of course the pros.........who have been formally trained, and carry/carried weapons as part of their job duty...............they get a pass when they go BOOM and "don't know what happened".

I have had a mechanical failure and seen a couple of others. It does happen. In those instances, bullets went down range and downward.

Because the rules were followed.

I don't know where you come up with these ideas. I personally know of an officer who had a negligent discharge and was fired. I guess haters are just going to hate.

 

[HoughMade]

As good as he is, Sergeant Angel's definition has not made it into the law in the U.S. yet.

[video=youtube;puK5CwThaq4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puK5CwThaq4[/video]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that is why you follow the rules.
It up to you to follow them. People get hurt when we don't.

If you have a AD down range it is the rule that had you pointed down range when it happened.

How does that fit the guy in the story?

You made a general statement, I responded with a general response. In this specific, as no one was hurt it would seem the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.

Few other points, without taking the time to quote individual posters:

Saying something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's going to happen. I haven't been hit by a train yet. I'll probably die from something else before I am. That doesn't change the fact that it hasn't happened yet and I should take precautions to prevent it from happening because...it could.

Every time you handle a gun that is mechanically capable of firing in it's current state, there is the potential for an AD. We mitigate that in a multitude of ways. One of those is recognizing we aren't perfect.

The argument over accidental meaning no one to blame is pretty silly. Accidental just means you didn't mean to do it. If I run my car into a tree, I sure didn't mean to. I'm still to blame. It's still an accident. If it's negligent or not is a separate question and is not mutually exclusive. If my brakes failed or if I was texting while driving, the fact striking the tree was accidental remains the same.

 

[cedartop]

On the unedited video, Travis himself says, I've already had one ND today? He's been embarrassed and is trying to save face rather than make it a training reinforcement!

Yea, that is disappointing out of him. Not so much the ND, because that can happen to any of us who aren't 100% switched on, but the cover up.

 

[JettaKnight]

You made a general statement, I responded with a general response. In this specific, as no one was hurt it would seem the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.

Few other points, without taking the time to quote individual posters:

Saying something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's going to happen. I haven't been hit by a train yet. I'll probably die from something else before I am. That doesn't change the fact that it hasn't happened yet and I should take precautions to prevent it from happening because...it could.

Every time you handle a gun that is mechanically capable of firing in it's current state, there is the potential for an AD. We mitigate that in a multitude of ways. One of those is recognizing we aren't perfect.

The argument over accidental meaning no one to blame is pretty silly. Accidental just means you didn't mean to do it. If I run my car into a tree, I sure didn't mean to. I'm still to blame. It's still an accident. If it's negligent or not is a separate question and is not mutually exclusive. If my brakes failed or if I was texting while driving, the fact striking the tree was accidental remains the same.

I haven't raped anyone. Yet.

 

[chipbennett]

The argument over accidental meaning no one to blame is pretty silly. Accidental just means you didn't mean to do it. If I run my car into a tree, I sure didn't mean to. I'm still to blame. It's still an accident. If it's negligent or not is a separate question and is not mutually exclusive. If my brakes failed or if I was texting while driving, the fact striking the tree was accidental remains the same.

The point of differentiating between negligent user action and mechanical failure as causes of an accidental occurrence is that one cause is much more preventable - and that much-more-preventable cause is also far more likely to be the actual cause of a given accidental occurrence.

With a firearm, mechanical failure causing an unintended discharge is extremely rare. That failure mode has been rendered nearly nonexistent through design and engineering of firearms to prevent the occurrence. The same is true for mechanical failure of a properly maintained vehicle. (Failure to maintain properly - tires, brakes, oil, etc. - is preventable human negligence.)

Bottom line: if it weren't for unintended firearm discharges caused by human negligence, there would essentially be NO stories about guns "going off".

Thus, the point of referring to such occurrences as "negligent discharges" rather than as "accidental discharges" is intended to highlight the root cause of the unintended event (or failure mode): preventable human negligence.

The "accident" is the harm that results from the negligent discharge. The discharge itself is not accidental, even if unintended. That's why it's negligent.