Myth of "Knock Down Power"

[Jay]

HA, lots of old guys hang around down there.... me too on the weekends before leaving for a gun show, or the range. It would have been better to call, but my dogs would have announced you......

If you want the number, PM me........

 

[JetGirl]

Thread tagged to watch girly men cry.

not sayin' Annie's over 55..... but she is blonde........

Hey!

I heard somewhere that 1911s are too complicated for women.

HEY!!

/smack

 

[haldir]

I had the feeling someone was going to get smacked... but a double. that's a beautiful thing to witness.

 

[Jay]

She's good at that... other things too.......... well, she told me she was good for something....

 

[ihateiraq]

Did you make that up all by yourself? Nahhhh you had help, didn't you ?

Well sir, it sounds like you know yourself much better than anyone else. I'm in no position to argue with your self-assessment. Besides, your self-assessment appears to be quite accurate.

well played sir, well played. however, my generation also went to war. and you will not see Socialist Republic of before either Iraq or Afghanistan...

 

[Jay]

Relax, the politicians will not tolerate a military victory in the Middle East, just like they didn't allow it in Viet Nam. Besides, the Muslim culture and class structure cannot support a democracy...... the same held true for the Vietnamese.

my generation also went to war

Granted, but did you? If you did serve, then this comment....

you will not see Socialist Republic of before either Iraq or Afghanistan...

is beneath contempt, and dishonors the US military everywhere. If you didn't serve, then you need to confine your comments to subjects that you actually know something about..... and show some respect for something besides your own diatribe.

edit...... please forgive the thread hijacking...... I'm done with this .... regards.....

 

[elaw555]

It has been said before that misses don't count, the gun you left at home because it is too big doesn't count, and the gun you never fire because you couldn't conceal it and made yourself a target to the BG doesn't help.

Having said that, the gun that he/she feels most comfortable with and confident in is the gun that they should carry and they are the only ones that can make that decision. Ideally, everyone should carry the largest, most powerful, most accurate weapon that they can still conceal in their normal everyday clothing. If you go through that process and decide you can carry a 1911 or Colt Python then more power to you. If you find that a Keltec P-32 is the answer then carry that. But it's concealability is the number one priority. IMHO

 

[ihateiraq]

Relax, the politicians will not tolerate a military victory in the Middle East, just like they didn't allow it in Viet Nam. Besides, the Muslim culture and class structure cannot support a democracy...... the same held true for the Vietnamese.



Granted, but did you? If you did serve, then this comment....

is beneath contempt. If you didn't serve, then you need to confine your comments to subjects that you actually know something about.....

easy there old timer. im clowning with you, not on you. im all too aware of political hands in the military cookie jar. in our war and yours.

and im here right now. although its only for 2 more weeks.

 

[kingnereli]

It has been said before that misses don't count, the gun you left at home because it is too big doesn't count, and the gun you never fire because you couldn't conceal it and made yourself a target to the BG doesn't help.

Having said that, the gun that he/she feels most comfortable with and confident in is the gun that they should carry and they are the only ones that can make that decision. Ideally, everyone should carry the largest, most powerful, most accurate weapon that they can still conceal in their normal everyday clothing. If you go through that process and decide you can carry a 1911 or Colt Python then more power to you. If you find that a Keltec P-32 is the answer then carry that. But it's concealability is the number one priority. IMHO

What is this "concealability" you speak of? The concept confuses me.

 

[elaw555]

What is this "concealability" you speak of? The concept confuses me.

I carry a Mosin 91/30 under my jacket...

 

[INRanger]

For what its worth I own several .45s but generally carry a 9mm. I've been in my share of stressful situations and one thing I've learned is, things you do excellent in training your lucky to do good in combat. I am a firm believer in shot placement is key. I like to give myself as many chances to get it right as I can. Im very well trained and I've got more "How the hell did I miss?" stories that I don't tell than amazing one shot one kills while on the move. And for all you Vietnam vets. My father carried the same 1911 that he carried on his first tour, till the day he died and thank you for your service.

 

[Astrocreep]

I've seen this 'stopping power' or debate carried out on about a half-dozen different gun boards. It's pretty interesting but shouldn't influence your ccw selection.

Plenty of good points all around.

There is no such thing as 'knockdown power' in a small arm. Unless you count that 2 bore custom rifle project that was floating around the internet last week. I think getting hit with 1/2 pound of lead at 1500 fps might knock someone over. Might not.
Hollywood be damned, you're not getting knocked over by anything that isn't shot from a cannon, not even a 12 gauge, however cool that would be...

Good points about shot placement, carry comfort, practice, and selecting the largest caliber you can reliably handle. I agree 100%

The idea that women cannot handle certain weapons is a total myth. Agencies/Departments that change calibers to 'make it easier on women' are being silly.
My wife is a better shot with my S&W N-frame .44 mag than I am and my hands and arms are twice the size of hers.

Any argument about 'stopping power' that references the military and their selection of small arms as superior is also silly. Their platform/caliber selection process is massively political and is mostly about $$.

That said, I carry a .45 ACP because those rounds are compressed American Flags and JM Browning should be on the dollar bill.

 

[MDave]

I hope I am not interupting. I am not as experienced with this as any of you. I am curious about your thoughts regarding velocity. I have always thought that lower velocity larger caliber rounds were more effective at close range.

I understand, as stated earlier, that knock down power is a myth but does't a larger surface area transmit more of the energy on impact?

Also regarding velocity. I am an 80s 90s era soldier I served during the early 90s when the US Army was transitioning from .45 to 9mm. Many people who I had great respect for felt the 9mm muzzle velocity was to high. They felt the round would most often carry through a target and would not produce enough shock to stop a combatant immediately.

As I said earlier I have very little experience with this. I value your opinion.

 

[STEEL CORE]

I have been shot, OK so here is what it feels like unless your head is blown off, in that case you'll feel nothing. Pick a spot on your body you want to feel a GSW at. Now have your biggest strongest budy take a sledge hammer and hit you rioght in that very same spot. Now go into light schock and repeat after me "Oh **** I been hit"..............now try and find a Medic after the battle is over, like I had to do, get bandaged, and await evacuatiion. Or simply dial 911. Want more realism added to the scenario?
You know that spot where it hurts like hell cause your baddest buddy just whacked you with a sledge hammer? Well poor liberal ammounts of anti freeze onto that spot so it soaks into everything, yea you can dye it red if you want. Feel how sticky it is, how the bandages your using get filled up quick...................now you know.

Lucky for me there is a happy ending, every month Uncle Sam pays me alot of $$$ for me now missing part of my body, but you know what keep the cash Sam, I would rather had not gotten shot.

P.S. dude what shot me will never shoot anybody or anything else, I made sure of that!

 

[zky]

Interesting string.

MDave makes a point that if the bullet passes through, then it did not transfer all of it's energy to the target.

The damage caused by the bullet, as mentioned early in the string is due to velocity more than bullet size I believe. I believe the cavitation increases linearly with speed, but I don't think it has the same relationship with the size of the bullet. If that's true, then you would want the higher velocity, rather than the larger bullet. Of course, there is a diminishing return on that logic, and somewhere the curves for velocity and bullet size intersect. That's the caliber you want. If anybody has those curves can you share please?

Like I said...interesting to think about. I'm looking to get a pistol very soon, and I've had this kind of discussion with several people I work with. I think I'll just go with the gun that's comfortable, and something I'm able to shoot accurately - i.e. improve placement on target. Although honestly, since I am buying this for personal protection in my home, I really hope I never have to use it.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Obviously if you do not hit a major artery, and or organ there is a much better chance of survival. However heart, lung, head, etc you increase the chance of death. Even with a .22. That's why in defensive shooting, you are taught to shoot center mass. You have a better chance of hitting a vital organ. The thing to worry about with smaller calibers, such as 9mm or .38 is over penetration. Granted if you use a higher grain hollow point there is less of a chance. Bascily what it comes down to is mass over speed and vise versa, when it comes to handgun calibers. I prefer the .40 myself. A lighter round is going to have a higher fps, and a higher flbs. The higher speed=more energy transfered to the target. Either way, I would not want to get shot with any cailber.