Myth of "Knock Down Power"

[haldir]

I would note that the author of the original article discounted the use of .22s, .32s, and .380s as not included in his discussion of major calibers.

I was really impressed with the differences that were demonstrated by Gunny R. Lee Ermy of pistol rounds and their effect on gelatin a few weeks ago. Say whatever you like about wound channels but the shock effect of that .44 mag on that block of gelatin was amazing.

 

[Joe Williams]

I don't think that's a safe conclusion at all...and I carry a .45 ACP exclusively...even considering the use of the word can.... As I've stated before......



...and, all due respect, I'll stand by that statement......

True, you cannot draw an absolutely certain conclusion from the statistical results. However, in the real world, we cannot produce those type of "labratory" (for lack of a better word) conditions. That's why I do tend to put some credence to statistical results with lots of shootings. These reflect the results of shooting over a wide range of impact areas, clothing, and intermediate barriers, just the sort of variables we will face if ever called up on defend ourselves. I don't think statistics based on 10, or even 100 shootings, can be depended upon, but there are statistics available with 200-500 shootings, and I'm personally comfortable drawing some conclusions from those type of results. I'm also comfortable carrying newer rounds based upon gel testing that achieved desired results, like Winchester's PDX1 round. The basis for setting those standards are grounded, to some degree, upon the past "street performance" of handgun rounds.

You can't look at those results, whether from gel tests or actual shootings, and set forth the results as though they come from on high, but they can provide some useful information when selecting a caliber or round. What I'm trying to say is you can't select an 88 Magnum, look at the one shot stop statistics that say it's worked 90% of the time, and count on it actually stopping a bad guy if you ever need it, but using that information provides a more sound basis than just simply hoping it's a good choice.

 

[Jay]

Everyone has to use their own criteria for deciding what caliber/ammunition to carry. I'm not comfortable with any comparative data that I've seen thus far, and I'm firmly committed to shot placement being more important than caliber/ammunition type. I wonder if the 400 shootings were nation wide, summer, winter, Florida, New York????

Were the shootings intentionally documented to include all types and layers of clothing? Sir, I'm not nit-pickin' at all, I'm just not comfortable with generalizing statictics, that can have wide variations in parameters.

I am much more proficient in shot placement, with a .45 than I am with any other caliber, thus I carry a .45..... NOT because of any ballistics comparisons.

To each his own.......

 

[Joe Williams]

Everyone has to use their own criteria for deciding what caliber/ammunition to carry. I'm not comfortable with any comparative data that I've seen thus far, and I'm firmly committed to shot placement being more important than caliber/ammunition type. I wonder if the 400 shootings were nation wide, summer, winter, Florida, New York????

Were the shootings intentionally documented to include all types and layers of clothing? Sir, I'm not nit-pickin' at all, I'm just not comfortable with generalizing statictics, that can have wide variations in parameters.

I am much more proficient in shot placement, with a .45 than I am with any other caliber, thus I carry a .45..... NOT because of any ballistics comparisons.

To each his own.......

We're actually pretty much in agreement. Going back to my first post in this thread, those statistics weren't a factor in choice of caliber for either me or my wife. The deciding factor was how well we could shoot our respective choices, and how much we would or could train with them. The stats are just another piece of information, but they aren't a deciding factor for us, since other factors are so much more important and relevant.

 

[ihateiraq]

if you dont carry a .45 youre a woman and not a true american.

 

[haldir]

Why was I suddenly thinking of the SNL skit on girly men...

 

[kingnereli]

Why was I suddenly thinking of the SNL skit on girly men...

Guilty conscience, maybe?

 

[Hellion_1]

Most of my GSW patients have had hardly any blood and there was no stopping power. Minus my self inflicted ones. Think of the external damage as this. Paper punching. The hole is generally all the same. But cavitation is a direct influence on both mass and velocity. And the result is a temp. cavity that expands (destroying tissues) before closing.

Excellent reply.

if you dont carry a .45 youre a woman and not a true american.

+2 Rep for that!

 

[Jay]

I figured the caped crusader and the dipstick would show up before long...

 

[haldir]

I figured the caped crusader and the dipstick would show up before long...

HAHA, why do I have the feeling that you sometimes fantasize about having their tails in your unit back in the day...

 

[Jay]

HAHA, why do I have the feeling that you sometimes fantasize about having their tails in your unit back in the day...

Well, sir.... back in the day, some folks that are currently very outspoken, would have already been convinced that sometimes, it's best to keep quiet if folks think you're a fool, rather than open your yap and prove it.

However, you are quite correct.... those thoughts have indeed crossed my mind.

Regards......

 

[Arm America]

It boils down to a personal choice. I prefer the .45 myself.

On a side note, if I happen to be driving my car and run a red light,
I would much rather be hit by a small "caliber" car instead of a loaded semi,
even though they are both traveling about the same speed.

Call me stubborn!!

 

[cosermann]

 

[Wabatuckian]

Sorry 'bout the smart Alek comment before...

What it boils down to is this:

Energy is a function of speed. Energy = Mass * Velocity^2.

It takes a lesser increase in velocity to achieve "stopping power." This is why the 5.56 works.

HOWEVER, that increase in speed is much harder to achieve with the powders commonly available today, especially when referencing handguns.

Both the endurance of the package and the ability to control it suffer.

I believe we've probably hit the wall with regard to recoil management for most people with the 10mm handgun round.

Because of this, we've increased mass and bullet diameter to compensate.

The trick is to find the balance between the two which provides the best of both worlds when talking about wounding ability.

There's still no magic bullet and the person will stop due to either a CNS hit or psychological factors - neither of which is dependable.

Fire for effect and hope for the best. Maintain distance and be prepared to go hand-to-hand if you carry a low capacity or a "mouse" gun.

That said, the .45acp and .357 Magnum (esp in the 125gn flavors) seem to have blended the two - mass and speed - together as well as can be expected, and the rest seem to be copycats of these rounds to a greater or lesser extent.

I'm sure there's some formula, a ratio between speed and mass, which will tell you which will probably perform the best. But if there is, I don't know it. It could probably be extrapolated from the .45acp, .357magnum, .40, etc, in a speed:weight ratio form, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to play with that at this point in time. We all know what works, and what to carry when we can't carry what works!

Josh <><

 

[irishfan]

I have never seen a GSW in person so I can't comment on those facts. I personally think that ammo choice as far as type is a large factor in stopping someone. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to carry anything from .380 to .45 and if I needed ultimate concealment then .32 would work as well. I would just be sure to put in nice self-defense ammo. However, I do think that sometimes a larger caliber such as .45 is important to some as it gives a level of confidence to the user. I know its not really thought of much but confidence that the bullet will stop an attacker is a factor that weighs a lot in peoples mind whether it is the truth by the facts listed.

 

[ihateiraq]

Well, sir.... back in the day, some folks that are currently very outspoken, would have already been convinced that sometimes, it's best to keep quiet if folks think you're a fool, rather than open your yap and prove it.

However, you are quite correct.... those thoughts have indeed crossed my mind.

Regards......

indeed. "back in the day" people were so hard. thats when men were men, and girls like me wouldnt have made it.thats why the military changed over to a 9. us girls wouldnt be able to control the unbridled power of the .45.

 

[Jay]

"back in the day" people were so hard. thats when men were men, and girls like me wouldnt have made it.thats why the military changed over to a 9. us girls wouldnt be able to control the unbridled power of the .45.

Did you make that up all by yourself? Nahhhh you had help, didn't you ?

Well sir, it sounds like you know yourself much better than anyone else. I'm in no position to argue with your self-assessment. Besides, your self-assessment appears to be quite accurate.

 

[haldir]

Did you make that up all by yourself? Nahhhh you had help, didn't you ?

Well sir, it sounds like you know yourself much better than anyone else. I'm in no position to argue with your self-assessment. Besides, your self-assessment appears to be quite accurate.

Careful Jay, you are going to start sounding like my old man talking about those Vietnam guys

 

[Jay]

Careful Jay, you are going to start sounding like my old man talking about those Vietnam guys

I've never said we weren't a different bunch . Regards to your Dad.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Wow.

Hey Jay, I was just passing through your neck of the woods a week ago or so. Stopped for a milkshake at that one eatery by the John Deere dealership or whatever it is now, and got talked into buying some old guy his lunch. Paid for a Converse police officer while I was there too.

Not saying this to brag or anything. Just figured that if it were brought up there'd be no mystery for you - just don't mention names!

I did think about stopping by, but couldn't find your number in this new phone and didn't want to drop by unannounced, but I had that .410 Enfield shotty and would have liked to have shown it off to ya'!

Josh <><