Myth of "Knock Down Power"

[sharpetop]

It breaks down to gun control. Place your shot where it will be the MOST effective.

If you are to the point you need to shoot, one to the forehead almost ALWAYS eliminates the concern about "knockdown power".

If you still don't feel the need to take a life, the knees are a perfect "take-down" shot.

Once again, shot placement = gun control.

A shot with a service caliber to the pelvic girdle area will generally drop an adversary like a used rubber. It may not kill them but chances are good they will go down.

 

[redneckmedic]

A shot with a service caliber to the pelvic girdle area will generally drop an adversary like a used rubber. It may not kill them but chances are good they will go down.

Not true...go down, probably...Kill them almost certainly.

 

[Dogman]

Volume (amount of lead inserted) + placement = stopping power.

 

[kingnereli]

In this month's American Handgunner, the title of the last page column is "Perfect Self-Defense Ammo?" Roy Huntington is the author and he has some interesting points. I'll paraphrase to try to keep this as short as possible.

As a cop, Mr. Huntington attended many autopsies of gun shot victims. He says it's "virtually impossible to tell the difference among gunshot wounds from .38/.357/.40/.45 and even .44 mag calibers." Obviously he has more experience than me, but one would think there would be a BIG difference in the wound cavity caused by a .38 special and . 44 mag. He's not just talking entry and exit wounds, but internal damage inflicted as well.

He also says "unless you hit someone in a central nervous system point, there's no shock or stopping power." I don't claim to be a smart guy. But doesn't one of Newton's laws of physics state that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? So the person hit by the bullet should feel the same recoil from the impact that the person shooting gun feels from the recoil of the gun? So a .44 magnum would hit much harder than a .38 special, as evident by the big difference in recoil from the .38 to the .44? I don't think anybody believes that people who get shot go flying ten feet in the air like in the movies, but I think you would feel more of an impact from a .44 mag than a .38?

"Gunshot victims simply bleed to death. The lowering of blood pressure eventually shuts off the brain. It might take 3 seconds. It might take 10 seconds or longer." That I can understand.

Sorry if this post is too long and boring, but I thought it was interesting and thought maybe some of you would, too.

I did like one of the lines in the column, though.

"It's not enough to shoot them until YOU think they are dead, you have to shoot them until THEY think they are dead."

Take this for what it is. It is anecdotal evidence. One mans opinion. You're assumptions are correct. Although terms like "stopping power" or "knockdown power" are somewhat vague and unhelpful. We want two things. We want adequate penetration and maximum tissue damage. We want a deep big hole.

It is too often reported (also anecdotal)that marginal calibers bounce of ribs and generally come up short on penetration and tissue damage. I will trust the biggest bullet I can quickly and accurately hit with. With that said, any caliber can get the job done. Terminal ballistics usually deals in relatively small numbers. This is especially true when the topic is handgun calibers. The disparity between calibers is much less noticeable then when comparing the plethora of rifle calibers. The winner is more clear when comparing 30-06 to .223 then when comparing .45 ACP to 9mm. However, there is a difference. Some calibers just do the job better.

Something else that amuses me is that just about every time the topic of handgun caliber ballistics comes up at least one person seems to try to nullify that conversation by saying nothing else matters without good shot placement. I have yet to really nail down a motivation for this, but you can bet it will always come up. I don't know, maybe I take for granted that most people don't rely on a "magic" caliber to do the job for them. Threads like these discuss what happens after we make those hits.

I want to reiterate that I'm not touting any particular caliber or labeling any others as inadequate. I'm just offering observations I have had when this kind of discussions come up as well as saying that with the studying I have done and the evidence that I have seen it will always be a wider bullet for me.

 

[Jay]

one person seems to try to nullify that conversation by saying nothing else matters without good shot placement.

The reason for that is because it's true.

Or perhaps I could modify that to say that nothing else matters until after shot placement has occurred. Also, if one shot impacts bone, and the other shot impacts only tissue, how can any meaningful ballistic comparison take place? I mentioned that in a previous post in this thread.

Look at the second post in this thread. Those rounds in ballistic gel, (which DOES lend itself to a meaningful comparison) do NOT lead me to pick my carry gun based on caliber, as they're all pretty close. My carry gun is the gun with which I can best obtain accurate shot placement.

Not arguing, just sayin...

 

[kingnereli]

The reason for that is because it's true.

Or perhaps I could modify that to say that nothing else matters until after shot placement has occurred. Also, if one shot impacts bone, and the other shot impacts only tissue, how can any meaningful ballistic comparison take place? I mentioned that in a previous post in this thread.

Not arguing, just asking...

I completely agree with you. Terminal ballistics isn't an exact science. I wasn't trying to demean what you were saying. It is just an observation that somewhere in a ballistics thread/conversation there will be shot placement is the only thing that matters comment. It certainly is the most important, by quite a margin, but not the only important factor. At least we haven't had the ubiquitous "a hit with a 9mm beats a miss with a .45" comment yet.

With this particular topic we almost have to assume similar impact media. The easiest way to do that is with rated ballistic gel. Even that has a downside. We all know gel is not flesh. A bullet in a human will go through flesh of varying density and probably encounter bone along the way. This can't be duplicated with a hunk of gelatin. Again, terminal ballistics is not an exact science. Good luck even defining knockdown/stopping power.

To further complicate things so much of the evidence is anecdotal. We can find reports or accounts of someone being dropped like a rag doll with one shot from X caliber and someone taking 14 hits from Y caliber and still coming. They are specific accounts that have value but are by no means all encompassing. What is more is that caliber choice can't be made solely on ballistics results. We have have to factor in recoil manageability, acceptable capacity, etc. Lately, price has even been a factor in caliber changes I have seen.

The thesis of my last post was to say that weighing all the factors according to my own priorities I am willing to say that the bigger the bullet the better.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

The thesis of my last post was to say that weighing all the factors according to my own priorities I am willing to say that the bigger the bullet the better.

Might I modify that slightly?? - to this: " the biggest bullet I can get effectively on target.." For me, that might be a 45 ACP. For my wife, it might be a 380 or 9mm. Size of the person, grip strength, what they can and are willing to carry and conceal day in and day out... all of that plays a role in cartridge selection too.

And to back up a great point that Pami made in another thread a while back... I want to make it clear that one thing that is NOT a factor is the sex of the person behind the gun! Physical characteristics (grip strength, size, what they can conceal - yep. Just because they are female? nope...).

 

[kingnereli]

Might I modify that slightly?? - to this: " the biggest bullet I can get effectively on target.." For me, that might be a 45 ACP. For my wife, it might be a 380 or 9mm. Size of the person, grip strength, what they can and are willing to carry and conceal day in and day out... all of that plays a role in cartridge selection too.

I think I said something to that effect somewhere along the way.

And to back up a great point that Pami made in another thread a while back... I want to make it clear that one thing that is NOT a factor is the sex of the person behind the gun! Physical characteristics (grip strength, size, what they can conceal - yep. Just because they are female? nope...).

This is also true. Although I've been surprised at times how physical stature and caliber choice may not line up. I've seen small statured men/women enjoy shooting a 7mm-08 TC encore as well as big, burly men/women wince at a .45.

 

[Jay]

I've had several ladies over age 55 n the last few months purchase a 1911, after class. I mean, after all...... Annie shoots one....... not sayin' Annie's over 55..... but she is blonde........

 

[Hoosier45]

Knock down power is nothing but a hokey myth perpetuated to sell magazines to inexpirienced suckers

I likes the purty pitchers.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Knock down power is nothing but a hokey myth perpetuated to sell magazines to inexpirienced suckers

I likes the purty pitchers.

Best comment in the last three pages

 

[Wabatuckian]

When are ya'll going to get it through your heads that a .45acp will hit someone in the pinkie, spin them around and knock 'em down, and make 'em die from shock? This is in direct contrast to the 9mm, which will punch holes in a perp without ever doing much of anything to him.

Josh <><

 

[Jack Ryan]

I'm all for everyone else going with the 22 and 380 things. That's plenty.

 

[jpserv]

I gotta say for stopping power a 45. The problem with a 357 is that its gonna go through the body through the car and off the side of the building.

 

[Hank in Indiana]

I don't have any experience with bullets but as a kid I got hit with small rocks and big rocks. The big ones hurt more and bruised bigger than the little ones.

 

[LLDJR]

Granted, but shot placement has to occur before the bullet can affect the target

This has always been my thought as well

 

[dice dealer]

I have read before and have seen it on a couple TV shows on the subject , that more people on this planet have been killed with the .22 LR round than any other round made ...EVER

I have to agree for 2 reasons ..
I have had a coupke friends shot , one with a 9mm , he went to the hospital was stitched up stayed over night then sent home scared but ok .
The other shot basicly in the same spot with a .22 , now has a scare the entire length of his torso , were the doctors had to go in and find all the bullet pieces . he died on the operating table twice , was released after only 42 days in the hospital .....


the other reason i think that more people have been killed with a .22 LR
is for the simple fact there is just so damn many of them .....

 

[Joe Williams]

Great reply!

So, then there really is very little benefit to carrying a larger caliber? I'm sure there is some difference due to velocity and expansion differences, but as a general rule .38 or 9mm inflicts comparable damage to a .44 or .45?

Statistically, there is some advantage to the larger calibers. There are issues with the "one shot stop" statistics, but if you have 400 shootings with .38 Specials, and 400 shootings with .45 ACP, and the .45 produced better results out of such a large group, it's fairly safe to draw the conclusion the .45 can be more effective.

However, the differences are not huge and should not be the sole, or even the major, deciding factor in choosing a defensive round. More important, IMHO, is the individual shooter. Some shooters prefer certain rounds for ease of controllability, which translates to better shot placement, which is the most important factor in "stopping power." Some calibers are unpleasant to shoot, like I personally find the .357 Magnum to be, which leads to reduced practice, which means a reduced likelihood of desirable shot placement. For this reason, even when I am carrying a .357 Magnum if I evaluate the most likely threat to be human I carry .38 Special +Ps in the gun. I enjoy practicing with .38 Specials, and hit very well with them, which means the .38 Special is more likely to be an effective defensive round for me, regardless of the "96% one shot stop" effectiveness of the best .357s vs the "76% one shot stop" effectiveness of the best .38s.

My wife likes the way .45s shoot, and they way the recoil feels to her. She loves practicing with it, loves shooting the gun. So that's her choice as a defensive round. I have an old injury to my wrist, and found that more than 50 rounds or so of .45 hurts. The 9mm is a light recoiling, easy to control round that doesn't hurt me to practice with, so that is my choice. Neither of us like the recoil characteristics of the .40s, so it's not a good choice for us.

 

[Joe Williams]

I've had several ladies over age 55 n the last few months purchase a 1911, after class. I mean, after all...... Annie shoots one....... not sayin' Annie's over 55..... but she is blonde........

I heard somewhere that 1911s are too complicated for women.

 

[Jay]

and the .45 produced better results out of such a large group, it's fairly safe to draw the conclusion the .45 can be more effective

I don't think that's a safe conclusion at all...and I carry a .45 ACP exclusively...even considering the use of the word can.... As I've stated before......

Caliber comparisons are a waste of time unless all shots impact the same body, at the same point, at the same trajectory, and pass through the same clothing.....all at the same velocity.......with the same bullet configuration.... outside of that there are too many variables for any meaningful comparison.

...and, all due respect, I'll stand by that statement......