MY PERSONAL PATH AWAY FROM THE 1911 (Hilton Yam)

[Harley46982]

Maybe I'm getting old (40 this year) but I have been reading gun mags since I was 10 or 12 and it seems to me that I have always read gun writers saying the same thing: 1911=needs a dedicated end user, not goanna be that dedicated? buy a revolver or block or sig .......

 

[cedartop]

Hey Cedartop fantastic article! It is nice to see such honesty in journalism with all that is out there today. Very refreshing read… I like your perspective and appreciated how well it was written.

.!

Just to be clear, I did not write the article, I only shared it.

 

[cedartop]

That's the fault of the drill, not the gun. I don't know what most of these drills are training you for, but no one gets that much time against that many opponents in a plausible self-defense scenario. Like floods, you may have the 50 year shootout or the 100 year shootout, but given we're still talking about the LA bank robbery shootout it shows the rarity of these events. These drills are part of the over emphasis on capacity at the expense of ergonomics and shootability.

Failures tend to stand out, especially if you're the guy who gets called every time one fails. If you worked on GE dishwashers all day, you'd say "these things are trash, every time I see one its broken"...yes, because no one calls the repairman to say "my dishwasher is working great, just thought you should know." 1911s are also highly tinkered with guns. As soon as Cletus Ray buys one he's got to start swapping out parts he doesn't understand for other parts he doesn't understand because "Wilson Combat" is more awesomer or whatever. Tinkered with guns, especially Cletus tinkering, results in a higher failure rate.

My own experience has been more failures to feed with a Glock than with a 1911. I've yet to find a gun I shoot as well as a 1911. He may not need the crutch any more, but I sure enjoyed it when I could. I'll take any crutch I can get, because I'm not as good as he is. His mistakes are so minute that amplifying them has no appreciable result. My mistakes are more noticeable, and thus amplified more.

I haven't carried a 1911 for many years now, I'm quite adequate with other guns, but I'm not buying his logic.

This surprises me from you. Normally you are quite logical. Liking 1911's is one thing, not admitting they have drawbacks is another. In the other article Tim Lua said that they see a failure rate of 75% in their classes from the 1911 platform. That in my experience is much higher than modern guns. I am not bashing 1911's I like them, they just don't seem to be the best choice for someone who doesn't have a full time armorer on staff or isn't willing or capable to keep them maintained.

 

[VERT]

I don't disagree about reliability problems with modern day, mass produced 1911's. I have seen a fair amount of failures in classes and at matches. They need to be wrung out thoroughly and maintained. The 1911 is NOT a carried a lot, shot very little sort of gun.
P
Then there is that little thumb shelf, that is a learning curve in itself. A real problem for those not dedicated exclusively to the platform.

I recommend to new shooters to master a modern gun such as the LEO's use. Later they can specialize to guns used by more unique professionals. I'm betting Mr Yam has a similar thought process along with a slight profit motive.

Burl hits the nail on the head yet again. 1911 takes dedication. I honestly do not see a lot of 1911 failures among those that I shoot with. But understand the single stack crowd tends to run quality guns that get at least basic maintenance. Truthfully I have seen more problems with the XD platform.

Cletti and their 1911s are everywhere.

People who decide to carry a 1911 soon aquire a second 1911.

I always recommend the Glock or M&P as a starting point instead of the 1911.

 

[wtfd661]

I guess life for me will still go on, and so will my respect and enjoyment of 1911's.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Burl hits the nail on the head yet again. 1911 takes dedication. I honestly do not see a lot of 1911 failures among those that I shoot with. But understand the single stack crowd tends to run quality guns that get at least basic maintenance. Truthfully I have seen more problems with the XD platform.

Cletti and their 1911s are everywhere.

People who decide to carry a 1911 soon aquire a second 1911.

I always recommend the Glock or M&P as a starting point instead of the 1911.

This kind of hits it on the head. The 1911 is a maintenance heavy and fitting intensive platform.

The Cleti with their Rock Islands, whom claim never had a failure, their round counts are exaggerated. One guy told me that he had over 1000 rounds through his RIA with no problems, yet, looked like it still had the packing grease on it, no more wear than handcycling a few times. The problem isn't the platform, it's the software definitely. The emotional attachment to a tool is problematic. That's the problem, the more we spend, the more emotionally attached we become. And GOOD 1911s aren't cheap. Folks that buy a 1911 because their buddy had a Kimber or Dad had a Colt aren't buying b/c they see the pluses of the 1911 platform, they are buying b/c they see it as an emotional investment. If I had bought based on emotion only, I would still be carrying around a Smith model 10.

Having a brace of 1911s, preferably set up identically, is ideal and Tim states that in other articles, particularly in regard to officers wanting to carry a 1911 (have one to run, one for back up while the main gun is in shop). But, cost prevails and folks don't want to fork out the cash for two of the same, good grade 1911s. It's hard enough to convince people that actually train hard to have two of the same pistol, even less expensive but reliable platforms like Glocks, let alone 1911s. I am actually in process right now of "uniforming" two Springfields I have so they are identical in parts. It's not a process for the weak of heart, mind or wallet.

I think we overgeneralize what people say in articles sometimes, taking what Tim, or Todd, or Larry or whomever is the identity dujour this month as biblical truth: The 1911 isn't a bad platform, just intensive. It requires more attention, skill and talent than a Glock may. They are more expensive. For most folks, these are bad things, as their lives are too cluttered as it is to even get out to do a class, so a Glock is perfect (to replace every spare part on a Glock less slide, frame and barrel is under $200 and if you can change your oil, you can change out Glock parts). But for windowlickers like me that train and have little distractions in life outside of that, then a 1911 has alot of pluses that cannot be ignored.

Face it, we've become a country of "send it back to the factory for repair" mindset. Heck, I've even seen people say to send a Glock back to Glock for a bad extractor (caucasian, please: get a punch, learn to pull the part and make it an experience, replace it yourself). 1911s on the other hand, people see even complete disassemble as a mystery when it's the most easy to disassemble gun on the planet. Also, no disassemble Johnny 5s, like Sigs or CZs. Ever horse with roll pins? Fun on a bun if you don't know what you are doing. Reason why departments love Glocks? So easy to repair, a caveman can do it. When you see departments going away from Glock, outside of a few true cases of need, they are chasing after shiny and new, not an improvement over platform.

As for FBI: Their HRT are slowly moving to G21s and G22s, the 1911 days there are diminishing.

 

[VERT]

G41 would make a great SWAT/HRT pistol. I see it as the modern day equivalent of the 1911.

The 1911 does have some advantages over Glock. Last year I took a three day shooting class that happened to have some students in attendance from other training companies. Day one my partner stepped up and shot a nice hand sized group in rapid order. Fist bumps all around because that is how it is done. I stepped up and blasted a single half fist sized hole in target. The following day another participant was getting frustrated because his shooting was lacking. He started criticizing the outdated 1911 on my hip. After all he had never seen one make it through his classes. I agreed mine would not either. During the final exam I listened as one of the assistants lectured him on his attitude and told him he would shoot the required score or not pass. I did what I could to help by attempting to shoot the course 100% clean (248/250 twice, dropped a shot both times). That is what a quality 1911 brings to the table. A rapidly deployed platform that can send a single accurate, heavy chunk of lead where it needs to go.

A comment on quality. The Wilson, Les, Ed guys are considered by some to be snobs. The guns work and work well if the owners do their part. My guess is a $2500+ gun deserves some respect and there is an emotional attachment and pride in ownership. I consider a fine 1911 to be the modern day and American equivalent of the Samurai sword.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This surprises me from you. Normally you are quite logical. Liking 1911's is one thing, not admitting they have drawbacks is another.

Just because I don't buy all of his arguments doesn't mean I don't think they have drawbacks. Every gun is a trade off. 1911s tend to be pricey compared to similar quality "modern" guns, they are a PITA to break down compared to "modern" guns, and I'd agree they aren't a beginner friendly gun. The drawbacks he mentioned just don't affect me. I don't *care* if a gun will run 500 rounds without cleaning and lubing, because I'm not shooting 500 rounds before I break it down and clean and lube it. I don't *care* if you have to carry 17 mags to get through Ultimate Ninja Assassin Challenge stage IV, because I'm not doing that. I don't *care* that he shoots an M&P just as well, because I'm pretty sure I don't.

 

[venenoindy]

I really enjoyed the 1911 over the years and I actually never CC as it has been a range and HD, I still have one 1911 and don't think I will go past that since also was replaced by a polymer double stack for HD and only comes out of the safe when going to the range. The eye opener for me was a few years back when I was shooting my SA TRP back to back with my G21 sf, I was shooting my G21 a tad better than the TRP during the same drills with fewer reloads (G21 is almost double the capacity) and add insult to injury at a third of the price of the TRP and that is the day the 1911 died for me as a combat handgun. I still want a full custom 1911 some day that I can give my son later in life as the 1911 platform has been liked by family for many years and is a tradition that intent to keep.

 

[VERT]

I had a Glock 35 that I could shoot as well as a good quality 1911 and almost as well as semi custom 1911. Good performance at 1/3 to 1/6 the cost. Also a much better choice for home defense since it held double the ammo (sorry Blue capacity is good for the house gun since I don't wear an extra mag holder to bed). That said I unloaded the Glock and replaced it with a 1911. Our dedicated house gun is an M&P 9mm with StreamLight.

 

[Rob377]

The gist of the article:

"If you enjoy the craftsmanship of a finely built 1911 or you enjoy tinkering on your own, by all means continue to enjoy them. However, if training, shooting, and performance is your primary goal and you lack the resources, time, patience, or knowledge to keep after a 1911, then be realistic and choose something more modern."

Hilton has held this position for the last couple years at least. Can't say as I disagree, but then I've never been a "1911 guy," and don't get a lot of ego/emotion invested in my defense tools to begin with.

Looking at his USPSA record, he hung up the 1911s back in 2011.

 

[Expat]

Dang, I hope I can sell mine before the market on them crashes.

 

[cedartop]

Well I won't be selling the entry level 1911 I just bought. I like it. Unfortunately, I also won't be able to leave it alone as I have already added an ambi safety, mag well and need some different sights. I also wouldn't mind letting a real 1911 gunsmith give it a once over. I think when I fit the new mag well and backstrap, I inadvertently loosened the grip safety up. There won't be anything entry level about the price when I am done with it.

 

[bwframe]

Dang, I hope I can sell mine before the market on them crashes.

Price?

 

[Expat]

Price?

$1000

 

[bwframe]

$1000

What do you got?

 

[45fan]

The gist I got from that article was "1911s are not for the causal user". That much I can agree on, and knowing MANY LEOs and other people who carry because of their duties or because of their interest in personal security/safety, I can understand where the idea is coming from.

Most LEOs that I know are not exactly "gun guys". Honestly, most gun guys that I know arent really Gun Guys. The average person knows that you have to put bullets in a gun to shoot it. Past that, there isnt an abundance of knowledge in the average, or casual, users brain housing group. Even the average LEO that I have had the pleasure to converse with is relatively clueless to any advanced maintenance of even their duty weapons, let alone something that they dont handle on a regular basis. I know may officers that may not even unholster their duty weapon on a MONTHLY basis, let alone daily. That sort of inattention is a good reason to steer the casual user away from the 1911.

My 1911s have never given me the first issue mechanically, but then, I replace springs for GP, not on a as needed basis. I do my research, and spend more money on good mags instead of saying "look what I found in the $3 bin" and running the cheap mags exclusively. I clean and lubricate my carry guns on a nearly fanatical schedule as compared to the "average" user. I know several people that havent so much as checked the chamber of their carry gun in over 6 months, let alone pulled it out of the holster to at least check the condition of the gun to know that everything is copacetic.

I can, for those reasons, agree with that article, and any other that would aim to steer the casual user away from the 1911 platform as a service/carry weapon. If the day ever comes that I just cant bring myself to spend the time that I do keeping up with my 1911s, then I will retire them to the safe, and move on to something that is less demanding of attention. But until that time comes, I will gladly lug around my heavy, old relic, and be comfortable in knowing that it will do its part as long as I do mine.

 

[bwframe]

Well I won't be selling the entry level 1911 I just bought. I like it. Unfortunately, I also won't be able to leave it alone as I have already added an ambi safety, mag well and need some different sights. I also wouldn't mind letting a real 1911 gunsmith give it a once over. I think when I fit the new mag well and backstrap, I inadvertently loosened the grip safety up. There won't be anything entry level about the price when I am done with it.

It doesn't take very long to get a thousand bucks into any 1911, if you want the modern day improvements on the platform.

I know you don't have to be told that the real test for your gun is matches and classes. (Failure at a match is not nearly as disappointing and embarrassing as failure in a class.) A lot of folks have no clue that their gun wouldn't make it through a day of heavy shooting under adverse conditions.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Just because I don't buy all of his arguments doesn't mean I don't think they have drawbacks. Every gun is a trade off. 1911s tend to be pricey compared to similar quality "modern" guns, they are a PITA to break down compared to "modern" guns, and I'd agree they aren't a beginner friendly gun. The drawbacks he mentioned just don't affect me. I don't *care* if a gun will run 500 rounds without cleaning and lubing, because I'm not shooting 500 rounds before I break it down and clean and lube it. I don't *care* if you have to carry 17 mags to get through Ultimate Ninja Assassin Challenge stage IV, because I'm not doing that. I don't *care* that he shoots an M&P just as well, because I'm pretty sure I don't.

 

[rvb]

Gee, all this talk about 1911s needing so much maintenance.... maybe it's no wonder I saw so few malfunctions with mine, as I never maintained them? Just shot the sht out of them with occasional cleanings? What "maintenance" does everyone think they need that other guns dont???

Requires more skill, knowledge, etc.... really? I find getting great groups w/ a glock HARDER than with a 1911. The trigger on a 1911 is easier to shoot faster. I'm more likely to get slide bit from a glock. which is the more "expert" gun again??? oh remembering to take the safety off? right... might be an arguement for that, espcially if your using old school tiny GI safety levers and tea-cupping or crossing thumbs in your grip...

capacity is a definite check in the negative block compared to most doublestacks, but 9 rounds is still reasonable.

Hard to take apart? please. probably about the same # of parts as the glock, and neither require special tools. Any extra complexity in the frame is made up for in simplicity in the slide. Maybe I just find them both so rediculously easy to detail strip after years of screwing around w beretta 92s... there's a gun you have reason to gripe about difficulty to completely disassemble/reassemble...

Yes, there are some big name 1911 makers using some junk parts (eg extractors that loose tension), but I've had to replace the ejectors in both my glocks to get reliable ejection, so are we really going to use that as a reason to say the platform sucks?

this is coming from a guy who is currently competing with and carrying a glock, so don't think i'm biased to the 1911, just being realistic.

-rvb