My daughters problem

[INGunGuy]

My problem with the whole thing is that my daughter was INNOCENT, she said NO to drugs. I am so proud of her for doing the right thing. She has NEVER been in trouble at school, she gets good grades. And the asshats in the school corporation wouldnt budge one freaking inch. I mean, EVERYONE sided with Rachael, except for Stephen Daeschner, Travis, Haire, and Marty Bell, the 3 worthless turd MF's that need to be FIRED for dereliction of duties. I have to say that there are VERY few people in this world that I hate, well those thee are Number 2-4, Saving spot number 1 for that worthless turd NoBama...

INGunGuy

 

[Doug]

My problem with the whole thing is that my daughter was INNOCENT, she said NO to drugs. I am so proud of her for doing the right thing. She has NEVER been in trouble at school, she gets good grades. And the asshats in the school corporation wouldnt budge one freaking inch. I mean, EVERYONE sided with Rachael, except for Stephen Daeschner, Travis, Haire, and Marty Bell, the 3 worthless turd MF's that need to be FIRED for dereliction of duties. I have to say that there are VERY few people in this world that I hate, well those thee are Number 2-4, Saving spot number 1 for that worthless turd NoBama...

INGunGuy

Absolutely right. It is the principle of the thing.
I guess about all you can do is hold them in utter contempt and make certain they know it. NEVER miss an opportunity to work against them and point out their moral turpitude. Figuratively and verbally them every chance you get.

Doug

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Skinr...

We had a very civil discourse on this back when it happened. And you, sir, are a gentleman and handled it very well. I had lost track of IGG/Rachael's situation and just saw this again. While I understand and appreciate the pickle that the public schools are in, I am forced to wonder at this point....

Does this not make the case pretty well for competition among schools, as opposed to a government run system? If I don't like how my child is treated at McDonald's for instance - I go to Taco Bell! Everyone in this case agrees that this young lady is being treated unfairly. The only issue is three administrators playing CYA and hoping it will blow over. And a union and school board without the balls to stand up to this (doubt the union's directly involved, but they no doubt have the muscle and could exercise it for GOOD in this case). So why then not have school choice and let parents vote with their feet? No lawyers needed!

More often than not, the free marketplace can solve a problem pretty quickly. I for one, am thinking it would be helpful in cases such as this.

 

[INGunGuy]

I have thought about pulling both of my children who are still in Greater Clark County schools out and homeschool them. Then they can just loose the federal dollars...

INGunGuy

 

[dross]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but one solution is to target the school board members who wouldn't step up. Your story is one people can relate to, and if you can get the people opposing the current board to champion your story, you can get the board thrown off. That will wake some administrators up.

Here in Monument, Colorado a few years ago the school district tried to use comdemnation to take some land for a new school when they had perfectly good sites that didn't require force. People organized and threw the offending members out by force, some of whom had served for a long time.

I think a personal story like yours would engergize folks.

 

[AFA1CY]

My problem with the whole thing is that my daughter was INNOCENT, she said NO to drugs. I am so proud of her for doing the right thing. ...snip...

INGunGuy

I agree with you 100% My biggest complaint would be what kind of a message will this sent to other children?

Do the right thing and get punished.

If I were you I would persue this to the highest possible level. After all it is your tax dollars that is supporting this stupidity.

 

[mk2ja]

Perhaps a continuing series of Op-Eds that continues and continues and continues to point out the injustice done to the girl who did the right thing and the idiocy of the specific people who refuse to budge would be good.

And I don't mean publishing the same thing each week, but each week have another "update" on the situation and about WHO has refused to make an intelligent decision. There has to be more public discontent/outrage about it. It could have been anybody's daughter! A regular appeal to the other parents in the schools that demonstrates and decries the kind of leadership in the school would almost have to have some effect. I hope.

 

[INGunGuy]

Perhaps a continuing series of Op-Eds that continues and continues and continues to point out the injustice done to the girl who did the right thing and the idiocy of the specific people who refuse to budge would be good.

And I don't mean publishing the same thing each week, but each week have another "update" on the situation and about WHO has refused to make an intelligent decision. There has to be more public discontent/outrage about it. It could have been anybody's daughter! A regular appeal to the other parents in the schools that demonstrates and decries the kind of leadership in the school would almost have to have some effect. I hope.

The crazy thing about it, is that there were 6 other children involved, and 3 of the others said No, also, but were still disciplined. And I have not heard ANYTHING from the other parents involved, its like they dont give a crap.


INGunGuy

 

[mconley]

wow, You raised your child right. It is ashame that the schools have become so blind that they cannot seperate zero tolerance policy from common sense. She did the right thing here, could she have told a teacher, yes. But she is young, lesson learned there. These school adm. are so stupid they are being counter productive and the rest of the kids now see what happens when they say no. And what boggles me more is they know if she would have lied about seeing the pill at all, they would have gotten no grounds for suspension at all.

As a side note I think it is just as important now days to tell kids not to write or sign anything, without first consulting the parents first. Sad but true.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Save your money and don't worry about it. In nearly 9 years as a middle school administrators, I've only had one request for discipline records, and it was for a court case. We gave them nothing because we destroy discipline records after 7 years.

We've got former students who are in the CIA, FBI, and military in every area. Never have we received a request for middle school or elementary discipline records or even grade transcripts. Never. Not by anyone or any employer.

If they did ask, they'd have to meet with me and explain what the hell their rationale would be for that, and I still wouldn't give it to them. Kids are going through puberty at that age and many do dumb things, including me and probably the person asking for the records. They'd have to get a subpoena to get them and I would still fight it. After 7years, they'd be SOL anyway.

Btw, colleges and universities don't ask for middle school records, either.

Skinr is correct on this one. Gov. security cleareance only look at records from age 16+ of the Subject. In terms of school records they only look at the high school records, talk to the teachers (at the HS) and any possible contacts at the HS. Middle/Elementray school are not looked at.

In very rare cases, if the Subject has a criminal record (pre age 16) for "big ticket items" (robbery, armerd robbery, grand theft, etc..) then does the gov pull whatever they can that is "public" (without a subpoena) on the issue. If a pattern shows up of continuing issues then chances are good the clearance will be denied.

If it's a 1 time event the majroity of the time it's not an issue. The adjudicators looks at eventS vs time. If you did one stupid thing (underage drinking, smoking weed, etc..) in your youth, took your punishment and stayed on the RIGHT side after that they will grant you a clearance vs the youth that got into trouble again and again and again. That shows a pattern of "not learning" and not being thrustworthy.

Things have changed since I got my SBI in 1989, then. FBI/DIA asked for and received my complete transcripts from kindergarten through High School and went back and interviewed some of my middle school and HS teachers. The reasoning was that I was only 19 and they had to get a feel for who I was, not just the person I was in the last three years (since age 16).

 

[INGunGuy]

Things have changed since I got my SBI in 1989, then. FBI/DIA asked for and received my complete transcripts from kindergarten through High School and went back and interviewed some of my middle school and HS teachers. The reasoning was that I was only 19 and they had to get a feel for who I was, not just the person I was in the last three years (since age 16).

Sounds like we both got our security clearances at the same time, because they did go back and got my transcripts from my grade school.

INGunGuy

 

[mk2ja]

Sounds like we both got our security clearances at the same time, because they did go back and got my transcripts from my grade school.

INGunGuy

Hey, OLD GUYS!


(FF to 6:30)
YouTube - men in Black part 8

 

[Principal Skinr]

Skinr...

We had a very civil discourse on this back when it happened. And you, sir, are a gentleman and handled it very well. I had lost track of IGG/Rachael's situation and just saw this again. While I understand and appreciate the pickle that the public schools are in, I am forced to wonder at this point....

Does this not make the case pretty well for competition among schools, as opposed to a government run system? If I don't like how my child is treated at McDonald's for instance - I go to Taco Bell! Everyone in this case agrees that this young lady is being treated unfairly. The only issue is three administrators playing CYA and hoping it will blow over. And a union and school board without the balls to stand up to this (doubt the union's directly involved, but they no doubt have the muscle and could exercise it for GOOD in this case). So why then not have school choice and let parents vote with their feet? No lawyers needed!

More often than not, the free marketplace can solve a problem pretty quickly. I for one, am thinking it would be helpful in cases such as this.

I don't disagree. Competition is already here. With new "transfer tuition" rules, schools are in competition, as we speak. For example, I can now accept any child who shows up at our school, no matter where he/she lives, and collect the money from the state, as long as the enrollment takes place before the official attendance day in September. I've got probably 15 students in this category. The only catch is that their parents must provide transportation, which they are willing to do.

The administrators are only doing what they are told. (I'm not defending or condemning them here.) The school board is the guilty party here. They adopted the zero tolerance policy here. Ultimately, the community who elected these people are responsible. As I've said before, my fellow conservatives are to blame. They love the "get tough" sound and feel of zero tolerance. Liberals hate it.

The unions usually don't get involved in this unless they see it as a teacher safety issue.

 

[Doug]

Realistically speaking, probably the best thing you can do is work to get the offending members voted off the school board.

Oh yeah, and also tell your children not to ever speak to school officials about anything of this sort ever again. Instruct them to refuse to talk at all until they have discussed things with you. You now know that the school officials do NOT have your children's best interests at heart. Once bitten, twice shy.

Doug

 

[Principal Skinr]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but one solution is to target the school board members who wouldn't step up. Your story is one people can relate to, and if you can get the people opposing the current board to champion your story, you can get the board thrown off. That will wake some administrators up.

Here in Monument, Colorado a few years ago the school district tried to use comdemnation to take some land for a new school when they had perfectly good sites that didn't require force. People organized and threw the offending members out by force, some of whom had served for a long time.

I think a personal story like yours would engergize folks.

Bingo! This is how to kill zero tolerance. However, it won't work if the community supports the policy.

 

[Principal Skinr]

Things have changed since I got my SBI in 1989, then. FBI/DIA asked for and received my complete transcripts from kindergarten through High School and went back and interviewed some of my middle school and HS teachers. The reasoning was that I was only 19 and they had to get a feel for who I was, not just the person I was in the last three years (since age 16).

I've never seen this kind of request. I spoke to one of my former teachers today who is an FBI agent. She said she's never done this nor has she seen it done. She said, "That's a stupid idea!" regarding checking transcripts or behavior records below high school. She frequently does checks on FBI applicants, too. She said she's never requested behavior records, even from high school. Only grades.

One other thing: Transcripts do not include behavior records. Only grades. In our district, and in many others, only courses for high school credit are a part of the official transcript. We won't release transcripts or behavior records to anyone other than parents and the students or former students themselves. Others requesting these must request them from the student or parents. Universities included. I checked on that today, as well. The only exception is with a warrant or subpoena. Those happen mainly with custody battles.

I fully understand the principlel behind wanting the record cleared, and agree with it. I was just trying to ease fears of potential harm done by a junior high discipline record. I've never seen or heard of a case of that happening in my 16 years as a Jr. High/Middle School educator.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I've never seen this kind of request. I spoke to one of my former teachers today who is an FBI agent. She said she's never done this nor has she seen it done. She said, "That's a stupid idea!" regarding checking transcripts or behavior records below high school. She frequently does checks on FBI applicants, too. She said she's never requested behavior records, even from high school. Only grades.

I wouldn't know what to tell her, then. I had to fill out all the paperwork for my clearance while I was in boot for FBI/DIA to start my investigation. It took them nearly six months to complete as I was in A SCHOOL on a temporary clearance until my sign-off came through. We had people rolled out of school because they looked good for their clearance in the beginning, only for FBI/DIA to find something hidden later in the process.

One other thing: Transcripts do not include behavior records. Only grades. In our district, and in many others, only courses for high school credit are a part of the official transcript. We won't release transcripts or behavior records to anyone other than parents and the students or former students themselves. Others requesting these must request them from the student or parents. Universities included. I checked on that today, as well. The only exception is with a warrant or subpoena. Those happen mainly with custody battles.

Part of my package was signed waivers for the school records, as well as for any LEAs that would/could be contacted. To my knowledge we did not have "behavior cards" in our school system. Suspensions and expulsions were listed on the same computerized records* that listed my grades, which I had neither of.

I'm quite sure if my school would not have released my records that they would have been served a legal request.

*I ran the "mid-watch" for our communications section and had access at times to our divisional records. I dug through my file a couple of times in my downtime to see how my record was put together and what it contained. I was a bit surprised at what it contained - not bad stuff, just how far they went into my background.

 

[hornadylnl]

The problem is that these board members would rather fall on the sword than publicly admit they screwed up. Especially since it's gotten media coverage.

 

[Principal Skinr]

I wouldn't know what to tell her, then. I had to fill out all the paperwork for my clearance while I was in boot for FBI/DIA to start my investigation. It took them nearly six months to complete as I was in A SCHOOL on a temporary clearance until my sign-off came through. We had people rolled out of school because they looked good for their clearance in the beginning, only for FBI/DIA to find something hidden later in the process.

Part of my package was signed waivers for the school records, as well as for any LEAs that would/could be contacted. To my knowledge we did not have "behavior cards" in our school system. Suspensions and expulsions were listed on the same computerized records* that listed my grades, which I had neither of.

I'm quite sure if my school would not have released my records that they would have been served a legal request.

*I ran the "mid-watch" for our communications section and had access at times to our divisional records. I dug through my file a couple of times in my downtime to see how my record was put together and what it contained. I was a bit surprised at what it contained - not bad stuff, just how far they went into my background.

My guess then is that schools handle records differently then. Discipline is not on our transcripts, and like I said, we shred the discipline files after 7 years. I can't imagine what they would be bothered about that took place in 8th grade or below. I still also believe they'd have to get you to release the records. They have no right to them without your permission, a warrant, or a subpoena. They certainly wouldn't get them from me. I truly question the value of any discipline incident that took place at such a young age, especially if not part of a criminal proceeding.

The bottom line is that as an administrator, I've had over 8,000 kids through my school. Not once has any agency, university, or employer asked for any transcript or discipline file from Jr. High. The only requests have come from the parents themselves or once from a subpoena for a court case, in which it was past 7 years, so they were SOL. We've got several former students with the FBI, CIA, and other agencies, and no requests came from them for anything below high school. I'm sure they did criminal checks, but we keep nor have any info on those kinds of things.

 

[Libertarian01]

Principal Skinr,

I understand that your experience lends hope to the fact that this young lady will never be bothered in the future by these unfortunate events.

However, I think you must admit that the societal trend is moving in the opposite direction. Information that was unavailable just 30 or 40 years ago is easily accessible today.

Our society and business model is moving toward deeper and more intimate details about employee's personal information. Even if that information cannot be "officially" used against them, they may never know the reason they were denied the job, simply that someone else was hired.

While I don't know how far back they went in records searching for me, when I was granted a top secret security clearance in 1985 (never used it) a gentleman from the Naval Investigative Service did walk around my neighborhood, talk to my neighbors, and ask questions of childhood friends. Who knows what kind of talk may have come up during his interview? Several people who were questioned told me he asked if I ever did drugs. What would my security clearance have been if just one person told him that "once Doug was kicked out of school for some drug thing"?

Funny thing is the mentality of drug usage has probably changed since the mid 80's. I would probably be more likely to get the clearance today for smoking pot than I would have then.

I guess my bottom line disagreement with your position is that neither of us can predict what will happen, and as such the best action is to remove any blemish to this fine young ladies record no matter how insignificant it may seem today.

This should serve also as a learning example for all of us. There were several politicians who agreed w/ IGG, held his hand, and listened patiently. In the end what did this achieve? NOTHING!!!

Have any of them introduced a bill to right this wrong? Have any of them publicly asked to have the person(s) responsible for injustice removed?

I hate to say it but I warned of this some time ago, nothing has changed.

IGG, what are the local newspapers and their links or addresses? One thing we could all do is a simple letter writing campaign to have everyone who has been elected that hasn't done squat removed from office, even those who agreed w/ IGG. IF they haven't acted openly, publicly to right a wrong, they have by their lack of action supported injustice.

I for one would be more than willing to write a letter to the editor asking for their removal and Rachel's record expunged!

Regards,

Doug