modernizing the 2A.

[Bunnykid68]

Wouldn't that technically be a straw purchase and illegal? Now if you bought it for yourself and later just decided you didn't like it.....

You can buy it as a gift for someone that is not barred from owning one

 

[downzero]

But that is what it means

Does "infringed" mean "impaired in any way" or merely to eliminate something?

"Shall" is in the KJV version of the Bible for a reason. It gets your attention. "Shall not Murder" has a better ring to it than "should not commit homocide."

Infringe is a much deeper word than "restrict." It means you shouldn't even get CLOSE to bearing on this right. It is the most direct and specific for a reason.

"Shall" is one of the most misunderstood words of command in the English language. It really should mean the same thing as "must" just as "necessary" and "absolutely necessary" should mean the same thing, but the reality is that those two words are not always interpreted that way. I even read an article about legal writing this past summer that suggested that we never use the word "shall" and instead use "must" or "must not" to eliminate any possible ambiguity.

And I am not so sure on the latter point. I would like "infringe" to mean "impair in any way," but I suspect that its historical meaning is something more along the lines of restricting something to a certain point.

"Shall not be restricted" to me means what you think "shall not be infringed" means. As in, cannot be frustrated or limited in any way.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Does "infringed" mean "impaired in any way" or merely to eliminate something?


"Shall" is one of the most misunderstood words of command in the English language. It really should mean the same thing as "must" just as "necessary" and "absolutely necessary" should mean the same thing, but the reality is that those two words are not always interpreted that way. I even read an article about legal writing this past summer that suggested that we never use the word "shall" and instead use "must" or "must not" to eliminate any possible ambiguity.

And I am not so sure on the latter point. I would like "infringe" to mean "impair in any way," but I suspect that its historical meaning is something more along the lines of restricting something to a certain point.

"Shall not be restricted" to me means what you think "shall not be infringed" means. As in, cannot be frustrated or limited in any way.

Who misunderstands what shall means? Seems pretty cut and dry to me and my high school ecudcation

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Who misunderstands what shall means? Seems pretty cut and dry to me and my high school ecudcation

Shades of grey...that's what we have lawyers for--to take reasonably straight forward sentences and tease out any meaning(s) you so desire.

 

[downzero]

Who misunderstands what shall means? Seems pretty cut and dry to me and my high school ecudcation

The wikipedia article doesn't seem to think so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will

"Shall" can mean "will," "must," or "should" depending on context.

If you want to use a word of command, I recommend using "must."

It seems cut and dry until you see it misused.

 

[Sylvain]

Who misunderstands what shall means? Seems pretty cut and dry to me and my high school ecudcation

Even the foreign dude who learned English as a second language in middle school, highschool and college understands the meaning of "shall".
Looks like US politicians should take some basic English lessons.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The wikipedia article doesn't seem to think so:
Shall and will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Shall" can mean "will," "must," or "should" depending on context.

If you want to use a word of command, I recommend using "must."

It seems cut and dry until you see it misused.

You shall not tell me what word to use.
You must not tell me what word to use.
You will not tell me what word to use.

Cannot really see the difference

 

[Bunnykid68]

Shades of grey...that's what we have lawyers for--to take reasonably straight forward sentences and tease out any meaning(s) you so desire.

What does that mean?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

What does that mean?

Would you like the "how" or the "why" explanation?

 

[Sylvain]

« Une milice bien organisée étant nécessaire à la sécurité d'un État libre, le droit qu'a le peuple de détenir et de porter des armes ne sera pas transgressé. »

Since there is no official language in the US why not write down the thing in French.This will end the debate about "shall".

 

[ThrottleJockey]

You shall not tell me what word to use.
You must not tell me what word to use.
You will not tell me what word to use.

Cannot really see the difference

You should not tell me what word to use. (just for the record, I've never known "shall" to mean "should").

 

[Sylvain]

« Essendo necessaria alla sicurezza di uno Stato libero una ben organizzata milizia, il diritto dei cittadini di detenere e portare armi non potrà essere infranto. »

Just as clear in Italian.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Since there is no official language in the US why not write down the thing in French.This will end the debate about "shall".

Too many apostrophes...

 

[Bunnykid68]

You should not tell me what word to use. (just for the record, I've never known "shall" to mean "should").

I didn't tell you to do anything

 

[Bunnykid68]

Would you like the "how" or the "why" explanation?

The "who" would be good

 

[downzero]

You shall not tell me what word to use.
You must not tell me what word to use.
You will not tell me what word to use.

Cannot really see the difference

You "shall" not tell me what word to use could be an expression of the future or a condemnation of past behavior. It could mean you "will not" tell me which word to use or "should not have" told you what word to use.

"You must not tell me what word to use" has both past and future implications.

You "will" not tell me what word to use doesn't seem to command anything. It seems more like you're predicting the future.

How about this quote from the Constitution:

...no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

The word "shall" in that context means "may."

Or if you want to move the negative, "may not."

Single post on INGO, four meanings for the same word.

Words have no meaning by themselves; only context can really tell us what they mean.

And yes, choosing words carefully does matter.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Just as clear in Italian.

It would probably lose something in translation, in Russian

 

[Sylvain]

It would probably lose something in translation, in Russian

Права насельніцтва на арганізацыю апалчэння для абароны свабоды ў краіне, а таксама права валодаць зброяй і насіць яе не павінна абмяжоўвацца.

I think it's clear as mud in Russian.

But google gives an interesting translation of it into English.

The right of the people to organize militias to protect freedom in the country, and the right to use arms and wear them should not be restricted.

 

[Bunnykid68]

You "shall" not tell me what word to use could be an expression of the future or a condemnation of past behavior. It could mean you "will not" tell me which word to use or "should not have" told you what word to use.

"You must not tell me what word to use" has both past and future implications.

You "will" not tell me what word to use doesn't seem to command anything. It seems more like you're predicting the future.

How about this quote from the Constitution:
The word "shall" in that context means "may."

Or if you want to move the negative, "may not."

Single post on INGO, four meanings for the same word.

Words have no meaning by themselves; only context can really tell us what they mean.

And yes, choosing words carefully does matter.

In your example it looks like sentence structure is more important than the word being used.

Thou shall not kill is the same as thou must not kill is the same as thou will not kill. Simple statements of what though shall, will or must not do

 

[downzero]

Thou shall not kill is the same as thou must not kill is the same as thou will not kill. Simple statements of what though shall, will or must not do

Not true. "you will not kill" could just be a prediction of future facts.

It isn't, of necessity, a command to do or not to do anything.