Mini Rant about Classifieds

[Chefcook]

I dont worry much about selling or trading a long gun, but on a handgun that is registered to me, I want proof of where that gun went when it left my ownership. I have bought, sold, and traded guns for over 45 years. Twice I have had someone that got a handgun from me many years ago, contact me that there gun was stolen and the police recovered it. They wanted me to verify it was their gun and I had sold it to them. In both cases, I did not remember the gun or the person.

OMG another one did you not even read the thread!!!

QUOTE=Chefcook;2279583]Dude you are so entirely clueless about the second amendment and about Indiana law. There is NO I repeat NO gun registration in Indiana you have NO guns registered in your name, PERIOD..... The paperwork you fill out when you buy a gun is retained by the FFL holder the make model and serial number of the firearm goes no further than the FFL dealer. The state nor the FBI have any record of what kind of gun you bought. The FBI only knows you bought a gun not what kind or model etc. There is good reason for this. Gun registration is the most intrusive form of second amendment infringement. Imagine if there was a record of gun ownership. An out of control government or hostile invading force would simply have to obtain that record and go out and scoop up all the guns and gun owners. The only searchable database for firearms is a database composed of serial numbers of guns reported stolen by their owners. That's it PERIOD. Oh and yes I will sign a bill of sale and have done so many times. If it makes someone feel better or if they want it for their financial records thats fine, because it is not worth the paper it is written on.[/QUOTE]

 

[Donnelly]

I see no issue with a bill of sale that just has a date, name, and signature on it. Both parties should be given a copy.

If somewhere down the road it gets sold off again and then some punk gets ahold of it and shoots someone with it, they'll come knocking on my door. No offense to the many fine LEOs here, but I want to limit the amount of time I need to associate with them in a situation like that.

On the other hand, say that the seller regrets giving the buyer that awesome deal, or he hates the trade they made, or any other random reason, and... Suddenly he claims it was stolen. This could lead to all kinds of bad juju for the buyer without a signed bill of sale.

I don't want or need your information nor do you need mine beyond that CYA name and signature. Seems like a very common sense approach to me.

^^^^^ This is exactly why I want a bill of sale for any transaction. Nothing more needed than name, date, and signature. Well, and model of firearm being sold.

 

[Drakkule]

Dude you are so entirely clueless about the second amendment and about Indiana law. There is NO I repeat NO gun registration in Indiana you have NO guns registered in your name, PERIOD..... The paperwork you fill out when you buy a gun is retained by the FFL holder the make model and serial number of the firearm goes no further than the FFL dealer. The state nor the FBI have any record of what kind of gun you bought. The FBI only knows you bought a gun not what kind or model etc. There is good reason for this. Gun registration is the most intrusive form of second amendment infringement. Imagine if there was a record of gun ownership. An out of control government or hostile invading force would simply have to obtain that record and go out and scoop up all the guns and gun owners. The only searchable database for firearms is a database composed of serial numbers of guns reported stolen by their owners. That's it PERIOD. Oh and yes I will sign a bill of sale and have done so many times. If it makes someone feel better or if they want it for their financial records thats fine, because it is not worth the paper it is written on.

I will have to disagree with this for one reason. I made a post about the ATF showing up at my house because of the amount of pistols i have bought this year. While they were at my house they informed me that one of my pistols was recovered at a crime scene, and it was not one i bought this year, i bought it from a dealer at a gun show in 2009. So they have a way of finding out no matter what we think. They had the make, model, and serial number to the pistol. We might not have a registration in Indiana, but the ATF didn't just pull the info out of thin air. I was told a bill of sale will give them a lead if the gun is used in a crime and recovered, this is why i will always do a bill of sale. Name, date of birth, and a signature is all the personal information i require.

 

[Chefcook]

I will have to disagree with this for one reason. I made a post about the ATF showing up at my house because of the amount of pistols i have bought this year. While they were at my house they informed me that one of my pistols was recovered at a crime scene, and it was not one i bought this year, i bought it from a dealer at a gun show in 2009. So they have a way of finding out no matter what we think. They had the make, model, and serial number to the pistol. We might not have a registration in Indiana, but the ATF didn't just pull the info out of thin air. I was told a bill of sale will give them a lead if the gun is used in a crime and recovered, this is why i will always do a bill of sale. Name, date of birth, and a signature is all the personal information i require.

The ATF does on occasion audit FFL's maybe in doing so they noticed you bought a bunch of handguns and wanted to give you a look and just because they said to you one of your firearms was involved in a crime does not make it so. Law enforcement use fishing tactics all the time. I find this very fishy and in your shoes would have told them to arrest me of get off my property, because they were violating your rights to privacy, and asking you to do the same to others.

 

[Drakkule]

Not to be a smart ass, but they did have all the info for the gun as i posted above. If they had just said "a gun you owned" with" no specifics, i would not have worried, but they had the make, model, and serial number, and i copy of the police report. I'm not saying they keep track of our firearms, but they can track them down to who bought the gun when it was new.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

Bill of sale, meh. Verification of residency, okay.

It's the folks that scream for the absolute need to go through an FFL when it's clearly a Face to face transaction with two people in the same state that don't get it. Their "safety" sure, whatever. They will not get my money. I have better things to do than chase after a firearm when the owner doesn't understand why it hasn't sold b/c of their paranoia or lack of knowledge of the law.

I have no issue with the FFL thing as long as the seller is willing to pay all the fees. Im not dropping any more $$ to do it, that or it is coming off the price of the gun.

But you are right its silly to ask for it to begin with. I like to see an IN ID unless I have done business with you in the past. I have even driven to meet a guy who refused to show me his ID. He even refused to show me the state on his license even if he covered up his info. That is a huge red flag and I bailed.

 

[Chefcook]

Not to be a smart ass, but they did have all the info for the gun as i posted above. If they had just said "a gun you owned" with" no specifics, i would not have worried, but they had the make, model, and serial number, and i copy of the police report. I'm not saying they keep track of our firearms, but they can track them down to who bought the gun when it was new.

Ok Drakkule's previous comment in regards to this has inspired me to look into this subject in depth because it made me question my own statements. I have spoken to the ATF and 3 different FFL's directly. I have gotten conflicting information from all, this has now really inspired me to find out the facts. I will be researching this over the next several days until I get to the bottom of it. The information I have gathered so far suggests that this may be possible. If this is possible even if this is uncommon, it could be the biggest infringement possible of our second amendment rights. I will refrain from commenting further until I am able to confirm my new found suspicions one way or the other.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I do not require a bill of sale when I sell firearms, but I do require kissing...with tongue.

I just feel better knowing what the buyer's mouth tastes like before I sell them a gun.

Whatever anyone's sales fetish is, is their business. As a buyer, a bill of sale is a turn off for me, but not a deal breaker and it is a free country.

 

[DRob]

It is what it is!

I have no problem with anybody refusing to sign paperwork when they buy a gun. They just won't be buying it from me. I ain't mad at ya'. That's just the way it is.

 

[Drakkule]

I did two deals tonight, and had no problems at all. I will always ask for a bill of sale when i buy, and i won't sell/trade one without one. Thanks to the guys i did deals with, both nice guys.

 

[71silverbullet]

See, that's a whole different question. No one said anything about name, address, and other information. When I do a bill of sale for my records, I don't include any of that. Just your name and signature that shows that you agree that the item you are purchasing from me is being sold as-is and that you accept the terms we've agreed upon. That way, we're both 100% clear on the deal and there's no griping on INGO later.

A bill of sale with just a signature and name ain't worth the paper its wrote on. You could sign any name you want. If there its problem, how you gonna contact the responsible party if you don't have an address or phone#?
Yea I will gladly show you my id for proof of residency, but you ain't taking it out of my hand and I well be covering my address when I show you.
BOS is not required or necessary and you won't get me to sign one. Like was said before, move on to the next SELLER in line.
I totally agree with the op on this one, this really gets me fired up when I travel 50 miles or more then they say oh yea sign this please

 

[71silverbullet]

So you don't think I would have any liability if you used a handgun registered in my name in a bank robbery and killed someone with it? And you don't think the police would ignore the fact that I said, "I sold it to some guy" when they asked where it was? And when they say, "Who'd you sell it to?" and I'd have to say, "IDK, I didn't get his name or any information." you actually believe I'm not going to see the inside of a jail cell?

.

Indiana does not "register" handguns

 

[Chefcook]

[FONT=&quot]Before I start I would like to reiterate, as I said before I am not opposed to signing a bill of sale. I am opposed to the notion that if you sell a firearm in a private sale and the purchaser commits a crime with the firearm you will be held liable. You will not. In reality you might be better off not having a bill of sale, then it would be impossible to prove you sold the firearm to the offender. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I said I was going to research this for a few days; it did not take that long to find the information. I talked to the ATF and several FFL dealers today, one of the FFL’s I spoke with had it right. While amazingly enough the ATF guy didn’t really know, it was kinda like he was making up as he went along and then when I asked him a question he didn’t have an answer to he promptly said he had to go and hung up. The ATF guy told me that the ATF has records they keep on microfilm of firearm purchases and that an FFL had to submit their 4473’s every 10 years to the ATF so they could add them to the list. I called an FFL I know and was told that he never has to submit anything to the ATF unless he retires his FFL or if a person makes multiple handgun purchases in a 5 day period, which he advises his patrons of up front before they make a multiple handgun purchase.

When I said to the ATF guy that keeping records of firearm ownership is a gross violation of our second amendment rights and asked him what if we were invaded by a hostile force and they were able to obtain the records? Millions of American gun owners would be compromised. He replied that it is very easy to destroy microfilm and that he was sure in that scenario the records would be destroyed. I then asked him how are we supposed to protect ourselves from an out of control or oppressive government, an inalienable right protected by the second amendment? That is when he fumbled for words and said he had to go and hung up.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By law there is nothing that says you have any legal obligation to ask for ID or a bill of sale, however under certain circumstances it is possible for the ATF to trace a firearm serial number to the original purchaser. Previous to this little investigation I did not believe there was. I was wrong. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Back to the original question of whether or not a bill of sale is necessary. No it is not, because if you sell a firearm and don’t have a receipt you still are not liable for what the next person does with that firearm, it just means that is as far as it can be traced. The gun could have been sold 5 times since you sold it. They don’t know because they can’t trace it any further. The only way you would be liable is if it could be proven that you knew before hand that the purchaser was a felon or not allowed to own firearms for some other reason. Like if you bought a gun and sold it to your brother that just got out of prison etc. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I only copied the relevant portion here is a link if you wish to read the entire document.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_registration.html[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The dealer must keep the Form 4473 for twenty years and is subject to inspection by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF or just ATF). The dealer also records all information from the form 4473 into his bound-book. A dealer must keep this log the entire time he is in business and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In addition, the sale of two or more handguns within five days to the same person must be reported to the ATF via a Form 3310.4. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Firearms Tracing with Registration Scheme #1 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These forms and records are used by law enforcement agencies to trace firearms associated with crime. To initiate a firearm trace, the police must note the serial number of the gun, then forward a firearm trace request (Form 3312.1) with other pertinent information to the ATF. The ATF then contacts the manufacturer who identifies the wholesaler that bought the firearm. The wholesaler then refers the ATF to the retail dealer who, using the bound-book, identifies the original retail purchaser. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The ATF considers a trace successful if the original purchaser is identified. Normally at this point, the ATF turns the case over to local law enforcement, however in rare cases the ATF attempts to follow the chain of possession. To trace a gun beyond the first retail purchaser, law enforcement authorities must conduct interviews and use informants, and of course these methods are often unsuccessful. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It averages 11.4 days to trace a firearm to the first retail purchaser. The ATF has developed a computer system that reduces trace time to an average of five days. Participation is voluntary, and it is anticipated the number of licensees participating will increase. (ATF, Commerce in Firearms in the United States, February 2000, p. 20) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The same ATF publication (p. 25) says, "Approximately 200,000 trace requests were received in 1999...A firearms trace currently identifies the first retail dealer for approximately 60
percent of trace requests and the first retail purchaser for approximately 40 percent of trace requests." (The report lists the reasons why many traces fail.) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, ATF trace requests are not necessarily representative of crime guns or gun traces: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"One reason that few [violent crime] guns are traced is that information about the chain of custody from manufacturer to retail sale is often not necessary for prosecution of state and local gun crimes.After all, a District Attorney bringing an armed robbery case needs to prove that the defendant used a gun, not that the defendant used a gun with a particular pedigree. In some cases, local police may find it faster to conduct a trace themselves than to ask BATF to perform the trace. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Further, some jurisdictions-such as New York, Maryland, California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts-keep detailed records of all legal ownership of handguns, or of all guns. These jurisdictions would logically use their own records first for gun tracing, and would turn to BATF only when their own data failed." (Kopel, David B. Tracing Misinformation: How Anti-gun Activists Misuse BATF Data, 1998) [/FONT]

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I'm not signing a bill of sale for anyone who is not registered with the state of Indiana as a business. If I want the gun that badly and it's required by the seller, I will pay for the FFL transfer, but I'm not providing that level of detail for anyone I met on through the internet.

Documentation (title) is necessary for the transfer of a car in order to register the car with the state. That is not necessary for a gun, so why would someone want to take my name, address, and other information for their records?

I've never been asked to provide that level of detail in a private sale. Just my printed name and signature.

 

[public servant]

I'll...point to the IN license plate on my vehicle.

I can get that information later off the video I take of the entire transaction.

I only do it for gun sales though...so the two guys I did deals with this past week...you're good.

 

[dice dealer]

I didn't vote .

You left off the opption of your being ANAL

If I am selling and you want to buy , it's part of the deal , Plain & simple ,
being the seller , If you don't want to do the deal as I set forth then deal is off and I wouldnt sell to you for twice the price .

 

[ATM]

I can get that information later off the video I take of the entire transaction.

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[Que]

I've never been asked to provide that level of detail in a private sale. Just my printed name and signature.

That's fine. So, what do you require when/if you sell a firearm?

I've determined from this thread that a bill of sale may be primarily used when those involved do not know each other very well. For the amount of time I spend in the classifieds, I've never been asked to sign a bill of sale and I've never seen anything I wanted requiring one.

To each his own, but if something I wanted required a bill of sale, I would either pass on the purchase or negotiate a FFL transfer. If everyone is so concerned about CYA, I would prefer to do it right. I just have a difference of opinion. Not necessarily right, but different.

 

[public servant]

I just have a difference of opinion.

But the big question is...are you going to start a new thread complaining about it...or just not buy from them?

 

[public servant]

You've obviously been dealing with amateurs.

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