Militia Takes Over Wildlife Refuge In Oregon

[in625shooter]

I would consider this true within the narrow context of making an attempt to arrest people without killing them, and specifically excluding any effort to address the actual problem(s).

Another problem: I will believe that the federal government is behaving as an honest participant the day I see Lon Horiuchi swinging from a five-stranded hemp rope administered by the federal government and not an instant sooner. One's morality is defined to a large extent by what is condoned.

While its a pretty safe bet no one on this forum was there at Ruby Ridge, those that havent should read this book by FBI HRT member and Marksman/Observer Christopher Witcolm. It explains (alone with the actual after action report) explains it a little better than most. Most folks don't have issues as long as they don't occupy/control Government buildings with firearms, Kill US Marshals, pay their grazing fees. Just sayin

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Cliven charges

 

[ArcadiaGP]

So if I'm understanding this right David said he is going to kill himself unless the feds promise him he won't get raped in prison. Not sure if anyone else is listening to this right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=616S8t9tek4

"Where are you David, describe the room to me" Sounds like the want info to rush him.

 

[bwframe]

...Not sure if anyone else is listening to this right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=616S8t9tek4

Am now. Thanks!

Thought they said they'd walk out hours ago?

 

[bwframe]

Wonder if that gent holding out like that helped the cause or hurt? Sounded like he was koo koo for Coco Puffs to me.

 

[olhorseman]

Wonder if that gent holding out like that helped the cause or hurt? Sounded like he was koo koo for Coco Puffs to me.

According to past arrests, there are other "Puffs" he is coo coo for.

 

[1911ly]

Oregon standoff: All occupiers surrender - CNN.com

 

[Thor]

At this point they are doing themselves no favors. There has been no outpouring for their cause...they are standing alone. I understand and commiserate with their purpose but they are doing themselves no favors.

 

[1911ly]

At this point they are doing themselves no favors. There has been no outpouring for their cause...they are standing alone. I understand and commiserate with their purpose but they are doing themselves no favors.

I think so. I think the no outpouring for the cause equals not much support for their cause. Hard to pound on the inside of a casket and get attention. This cause will play out in the media for years to come. And no one was force to have to live with taking someones life. I think in the end they well garner much more attention this way. And they live to fight another day.

It's hard to fight on from the inside of a casket if your cause is weak. Now they still have a chance to be heard. Maybe there cause will grow now.

I think it was a smart & humane move.

 

[BugI02]

That's not entirely accurate. Read the book "Stalling for Time" by former FBI agent Gary Noesner. He was a negotiator for 23 years and eventually became Chief Negotiator. Ruby Ridge was a mess and they tried to fix mistakes they made. Waco started off much better, but there was still a disconnect between tactical and negotiations teams. While negotiations was working to get children out, tactical teams were buzzing the compound with helicopters and armored vehicles were doing donuts on Koresh's vehicle. The left hand was doing one thing and the right hand was doing another. People were starting to leave the compound but tactical pressure started to cause problems that undermined negotiations. After that turned out to be another mess, Freeh took over and gave Noesner whatever he needed to accomplish things peacefully. The Republic of Texas incident was a great example of peaceful negotiations which ended well. Even this situation, which is standing at 40 days and counting, has only been violent when Finicum reached for a gun multiple times. Nobody has moved in or fired shots on anybody else involved. Things have changed since the early 90s where federal government negotiations are concerned.

I'm sure this had nothing to do with it:
“If you do it ‘Waco’ style here, you risk pushing this nation over the edge into a Civil War, because there are “no more free Wacos,”

 

[BugI02]

While its a pretty safe bet no one on this forum was there at Ruby Ridge, those that havent should read this book by FBI HRT member and Marksman/Observer Christopher Witcolm. It explains (alone with the actual after action report) explains it a little better than most. Most folks don't have issues as long as they don't occupy/control Government buildings with firearms, Kill US Marshals, pay their grazing fees. Just sayin

/QUOTE]

Dude, how stupid was it for that marshal - in the midst of a tense armed standoff - to fire first and kill the boy's dog. Have you seen 'Enemy of the State'?
I'm reminded of the scene in the mob guy's kitchen. Who wouldn't have seen that coming? If you have an itchy trigger finger why are you even on this detail? They had plenty of time to rotate out the marginal players.


ETA: Did you read it? No occupation of gov't building or grazing fee issues at Ruby Ridge, and if the marshals hadn't fired first the LEO death likely would not have been an issue either. Think about why it's called a 'fire fight'

 

[Trigger Time]

That's not entirely accurate. Read the book "Stalling for Time" by former FBI agent Gary Noesner. He was a negotiator for 23 years and eventually became Chief Negotiator. Ruby Ridge was a mess and they tried to fix mistakes they made. Waco started off much better, but there was still a disconnect between tactical and negotiations teams. While negotiations was working to get children out, tactical teams were buzzing the compound with helicopters and armored vehicles were doing donuts on Koresh's vehicle. The left hand was doing one thing and the right hand was doing another. People were starting to leave the compound but tactical pressure started to cause problems that undermined negotiations. After that turned out to be another mess, Freeh took over and gave Noesner whatever he needed to accomplish things peacefully. The Republic of Texas incident was a great example of peaceful negotiations which ended well. Even this situation, which is standing at 40 days and counting, has only been violent when Finicum reached for a gun multiple times. Nobody has moved in or fired shots on anybody else involved. Things have changed since the early 90s where federal government negotiations are concerned.

reached for a gun multiple times. I don't believe it.

 

[IndyDave1776]

While its a pretty safe bet no one on this forum was there at Ruby Ridge, those that havent should read this book by FBI HRT member and Marksman/Observer Christopher Witcolm. It explains (alone with the actual after action report) explains it a little better than most. Most folks don't have issues as long as they don't occupy/control Government buildings with firearms, Kill US Marshals, pay their grazing fees. Just sayin

Dude, how stupid was it for that marshal - in the midst of a tense armed standoff - to fire first and kill the boy's dog. Have you seen 'Enemy of the State'?
I'm reminded of the scene in the mob guy's kitchen. Who wouldn't have seen that coming? If you have an itchy trigger finger why are you even on this detail? They had plenty of time to rotate out the marginal players.


ETA: Did you read it? No occupation of gov't building or grazing fee issues at Ruby Ridge, and if the marshals hadn't fired first the LEO death likely would not have been an issue either. Think about why it's called a 'fire fight'

I had considered addressing this myself but concluded that there isn't much percentage in trying to persuade a fed that the feds were wrong. Unfortunately, Vicki Weaver is not available for comment as she was shot for endangering federal personnel by being armed with a baby. Seriously, I seem to recall that the ROE by the time Horiuchi arrived on scene basically called for shooting anyone the federal personnel could draw a bead on at their own home following a preemptive attack as you described.

In my reckoning, perhaps the most bothersome element here and in some other situations is the immunity afforded federal officers. The principle was rigidly followed in the Nuremberg trials that 'following orders' is not an acceptable defense for criminal activity, yet it worked for Lon Horiuchi, who was also accused of wrong-doing at Waco, but, surprise, surprise, surprise, he had his rifle rebarreled immediately after that incident, so there was no evidence.

That said, I have my doubts that there is much to be gained from reading the establishment account of an incident which is already well documented.

 

[BugI02]

You mean this?

"On September 13, 1993, Charles Riley, a fellow FBI sniper deployed during the Waco Siege claimed that he had heard Horiuchi shooting from Sierra 1, an FBI-held house in front of the compound holding eight snipers, including Horiuchi and Christopher Curran on 19 April 1993. Riley later retracted his statement, saying that he had been misquoted, and that he had only heard snipers at Sierra 1 announce that shots had been fired by Branch Davidians. Riley later clarified that he had heard a radio report from Sierra One that someone at that position had witnessed gunfire from within the compound."


Three of the twelve expended .308 Winchester shell cases that the Texas Rangers reported finding in the house were at Horiuchi's position. However, officials maintain that they could have been left behind from the earlier use of the house by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives snipers on February 28, 1993, and that it would be "nearly impossible" to match them to Horiuchi's rifle, as it had probably been rebarreled since that time.

 

[IndyDave1776]

You mean this?

"On September 13, 1993, Charles Riley, a fellow FBI sniper deployed during the Waco Siege claimed that he had heard Horiuchi shooting from Sierra 1, an FBI-held house in front of the compound holding eight snipers, including Horiuchi and Christopher Curran on 19 April 1993. Riley later retracted his statement, saying that he had been misquoted, and that he had only heard snipers at Sierra 1 announce that shots had been fired by Branch Davidians. Riley later clarified that he had heard a radio report from Sierra One that someone at that position had witnessed gunfire from within the compound."


Three of the twelve expended .308 Winchester shell cases that the Texas Rangers reported finding in the house were at Horiuchi's position. However, officials maintain that they could have been left behind from the earlier use of the house by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives snipers on February 28, 1993, and that it would be "nearly impossible" to match them to Horiuchi's rifle, as it had probably been rebarreled since that time.

 

[BugI02]

I wonder who [STRIKE]coached[/STRIKE] helped Riley to clarify his recollections

 

[IndyDave1776]

I wonder who [STRIKE]coached[/STRIKE] helped Riley to clarify his recollections

Yes, one wonders, right along with wondering what carrots and what sticks were presented along with such guidance.

 

[in625shooter]

While its a pretty safe bet no one on this forum was there at Ruby Ridge, those that havent should read this book by FBI HRT member and Marksman/Observer Christopher Witcolm. It explains (alone with the actual after action report) explains it a little better than most. Most folks don't have issues as long as they don't occupy/control Government buildings with firearms, Kill US Marshals, pay their grazing fees. Just sayin

/QUOTE]

Dude, how stupid was it for that marshal - in the midst of a tense armed standoff - to fire first and kill the boy's dog. Have you seen 'Enemy of the State'?
I'm reminded of the scene in the mob guy's kitchen. Who wouldn't have seen that coming? If you have an itchy trigger finger why are you even on this detail? They had plenty of time to rotate out the marginal players.


ETA: Did you read it? No occupation of gov't building or grazing fee issues at Ruby Ridge, and if the marshals hadn't fired first the LEO death likely would not have been an issue either. Think about why it's called a 'fire fight'

First I am not defending anyone here just explaining a view but with that said

Dude, how stupid was Weaver for not showing up to court and getting things quashed??? How stupid was it of the family and friend Harris to run around armed when they knew a warrant was issued???I am not saying the FED;s never made a mistake here or there on handling things BUT It does not matter how BS trivial the matter is there are certain ways to address it and certain ways that it gets escalated right or wrong and doesn't end well.

I had considered addressing this myself but concluded that there isn't much percentage in trying to persuade a fed that the feds were wrong. Unfortunately, Vicki Weaver is not available for comment as she was shot for endangering federal personnel by being armed with a baby. Seriously, I seem to recall that the ROE by the time Horiuchi arrived on scene basically called for shooting anyone the federal personnel could draw a bead on at their own home following a preemptive attack as you described.

In my reckoning, perhaps the most bothersome element here and in some other situations is the immunity afforded federal officers. The principle was rigidly followed in the Nuremberg trials that 'following orders' is not an acceptable defense for criminal activity, yet it worked for Lon Horiuchi, who was also accused of wrong-doing at Waco, but, surprise, surprise, surprise, he had his rifle rebarreled immediately after that incident, so there was no evidence.

That said, I have my doubts that there is much to be gained from reading the establishment account of an incident which is already well documented.

Again no one here was there at Ruby Ridge, Waco,the Bundy Ranch or the Oregan refuge, yes there were some mistakes made but once again it wouldn't have gotton escalated to deadly force if folks would have just addressed their issues through proper channels. You can be in the right as anyone and give anyone a perception of threatining them (refering to the running around the property with firearms when LEO's are trying to serve a warrant) it always ends well and the trivial matter is no more relevent, the persons actions changed the dynamics not the LEO.


As far s Ruby Ridge, the way a team of Marksmans/Observers work is they in normal circumstances call what they have in to the Tactical Operations Center (TOC). EVERYTHING is coordinated through TOC. M/O's normally don't shoot on their will unless they either have an immediate threat to LEO's OR have the go ahead of what they call "Compromised Authority" which is what they had as soon as the US Marshal was killed until they modified it. And as far as if Hoiruchi changing his barrel or not, Most sniper rifles on the Federal side are rebarreled every 3,000 rounds as SOP as prevenative maintenance.


It's funny a lot of people want to jump all over the LEO's for shooting Mr Finicum, or when someone had a warrant that was getting served and something went south because of the accused actions, but were alright with the shooting by Police of Micheal Brown or something similar.

 

[IndyDave1776]

It's funny a lot of people want to jump all over the LEO's for shooting Mr Finicum, or when someone had a warrant that was getting served and something went south because of the accused actions, but were alright with the shooting by Police of Micheal Brown or something similar.

Brown and Weaver...there is just a microscopic little bit of difference between shooting a woman armed only with a baby and an officer shooting someone who was beating the f*ck out of said officer inside the officer's vehicle precipitated by telling the idiot to get his stupid ass out of the middle of the street without realizing that he had just robbed a store.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I had considered addressing this myself but concluded that there isn't much percentage in trying to persuade a fed that the feds were wrong. Unfortunately, Vicki Weaver is not available for comment as she was shot for endangering federal personnel by being armed with a baby. Seriously, I seem to recall that the ROE by the time Horiuchi arrived on scene basically called for shooting anyone the federal personnel could draw a bead on at their own home following a preemptive attack as you described.

In my reckoning, perhaps the most bothersome element here and in some other situations is the immunity afforded federal officers. The principle was rigidly followed in the Nuremberg trials that 'following orders' is not an acceptable defense for criminal activity, yet it worked for Lon Horiuchi, who was also accused of wrong-doing at Waco, but, surprise, surprise, surprise, he had his rifle rebarreled immediately after that incident, so there was no evidence.

That said, I have my doubts that there is much to be gained from reading the establishment account of an incident which is already well documented.

That only applies to the vanquished.