Militia Takes Over Wildlife Refuge In Oregon

[dusty88]

What I mean is, to say that if the govt followed the Constitution to the letter, there would still be a sizable amount of people who would disagree with that "letter." The Constitution isn't a blank and white document. If it were, the Constitution probably wouldn't have provided for a body to interpret its meaning. So yeah, nobody (who has a cursory understand of the Constitution), would believe the whole "if you followed the Constitution, this wouldn't have happened," nonsense.

I still don't agree with you, but thanks for clarifying.

The property ownership of the feds is clearly spelled out. The way I see it, it happened because the feds didn't exercise much control over that "owned" land for the first few decades. By the time they did it was considered "normal" to own it. Now it seems supposedly crazy to wind it back, just as people would think it was crazy to unwind the 1930s interpretation of the commerce clause.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I still don't agree with you, but thanks for clarifying.

The property ownership of the feds is clearly spelled out. The way I see it, it happened because the feds didn't exercise much control over that "owned" land for the first few decades. By the time they did it was considered "normal" to own it. Now it seems supposedly crazy to wind it back, just as people would think it was crazy to unwind the 1930s interpretation of the commerce clause.

The way I see it, the property clause throws a monkey wrench in the whole works.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States....
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2

What is "other Property?" It seems like a catchall

 

[Wild Deuce]

*

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Yeager needs to just shut up. Kind of like that Olympic shotgunner sponsored by Beretta talking about gun control. I don't know his opinion - and frankly don't care. Every time his pie hole opens - stupidity, ignorance, and hyperbole seems to fly out.

 

[Punkinhead]

I still don't agree with you, but thanks for clarifying.

The property ownership of the feds is clearly spelled out. The way I see it, it happened because the feds didn't exercise much control over that "owned" land for the first few decades. By the time they did it was considered "normal" to own it. Now it seems supposedly crazy to wind it back, just as people would think it was crazy to unwind the 1930s interpretation of the commerce clause.

Yep. When people are moochers for generations they get a sense of entitlement and get outraged when someone says, "you know, the government doesn't owe you a living." Western ranchers have been sucking at the government teat so long they think it's a birthright.

 

[cobber]

You're right. Terrorist isn't quite right. How about seditionists or insurrectionists?

In the 60s and 70s university students occupied numerous administration buildings on various campuses.

The Oregon guys should get what the students got.

No. I'm not talking about Eric Whats-his-name...

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yep. When people are moochers for generations they get a sense of entitlement and get outraged when someone says, "you know, the government doesn't owe you a living." Western ranchers have been sucking at the government teat so long they think it's a birthright.

Boy do they!
Ammon Bundy took out $530,000 federal loan - CNN.com

 

[Kutnupe14]

In the 60s and 70s university students occupied numerous administration buildings on various campuses.

The Oregon guys should get what the students got.

No. I'm not talking about Eric Whats-his-name...

Like where? West Point? Annapolis?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

[video=youtube;T424sWq1SkE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE[/video]

I only had time to listen to the first 2 minutes or so. But I remember reading a few days ago where some or all of the western states (the author only excerpted one -- Nevada or Oregon -- don't remember) had in their state constitutions that they laid no claim to those lands and deferred it to the Feds. Sorry to be cryptic but if true, how does that affect what this speaker had to say in the first couple of minutes I listened to?

 

[Punkinhead]

I only had time to listen to the first 2 minutes or so. But I remember reading a few days ago where some or all of the western states (the author only excerpted one -- Nevada or Oregon -- don't remember) had in their state constitutions that they laid no claim to those lands and deferred it to the Feds. Sorry to be cryptic but if true, how does that affect what this speaker had to say in the first couple of minutes I listened to?

The original amendment to the Nevada state constitution had wording to the effect that they laid no claim to federal land: "That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory," The final version eliminated that sentence and has: "
That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that lands belonging to citizens of the United States, residing without the said state, shall never be taxed higher than the land belonging to the residents thereof; and that no taxes shall be imposed by said state on lands or property therein belonging to, or which may hereafter be purchased by, the United States, unless otherwise provided by the Congress of the United States." Which still acknowledges that the feds own the land, just not as explicitly.

 

[cobber]

Which still acknowledges that the feds own the land, just not as explicitly.

The feds? As in you and me and the people of the 57 States. Not just folks living in DC.

Like where? West Point? Annapolis?

Columbia and the U. of Chicago for two. I see, it only counts if it's federal (i.e. the People's) property, and not State or private property.

I'll work up a list of public universities where this happened too.

Not even talking about the U. of Wisconsin math center that was blown up. Whatever happened to the bomber, who was protesting war, by the way? Was he charged with murder? Hmm...



I guess some property is more valuable than other.


#FederalPropertyMatters!

 

[Punkinhead]

For the purposes of this demonstration only Federal buildings matter. A central tenet of Y'all Qaeda is that the feds have no right to own property.

 

[cobber]

For the purposes of this demonstration only Federal buildings matter. A central tenet of Y'all Qaeda is that the feds have no right to own property.

The feds don't "own" the property, the government does not have property "rights". Only citizens have rights...


I'm all for them getting the same treatment eco-activists get when they occupy federal lands. That seems fair.

 

[dusty88]

Boy do they!
Ammon Bundy took out $530,000 federal loan - CNN.com

An SBA loan is mooching?

Do you take a mortgage deduction?

Know anyone who ever had a federally-backed or federally-granted student loan?

In case you haven't noticed, the federal government literally spends about 25% of our GDP and pretty well controls the other 75% of it. It's hard to participate in the economy without taking federal "benefits". And if you tried not to, you'd probably have to try hiding out in some of those lands that they control.

I don't even like this guy but jumping on him for his personal financial situation or for participating in our economy in any way is irrelevant.

 

[dusty88]

Yep. When people are moochers for generations they get a sense of entitlement and get outraged when someone says, "you know, the government doesn't owe you a living." Western ranchers have been sucking at the government teat so long they think it's a birthright.

I know this is a long thread, but if not reading the thread then do some other research.

Many of these families bought their grazing or water rights, or earned them through land improvements, the same way that settlers in other states obtained their land. They weren't all handouts.

 

[Punkinhead]

I'm all for them getting the same treatment eco-activists get when they occupy federal lands. That seems fair.

I agree. As I said before, treat them the same as you'd treat petulant children - ignore them. So they spent a few cold nights at an unused bird sanctuary? Big deal.

 

[Kutnupe14]

An SBA loan is mooching?

Do you take a mortgage deduction?

Know anyone who ever had a federally-backed or federally-granted student loan?

In case you haven't noticed, the federal government literally spends about 25% of our GDP and pretty well controls the other 75% of it. It's hard to participate in the economy without taking federal "benefits". And if you tried not to, you'd probably have to try hiding out in some of those lands that they control.

I don't even like this guy but jumping on him for his personal financial situation or for participating in our economy in any way is irrelevant.

The federal govt shouldn't be loaning anybody anything..... if you want to loan Ammon the Moocher your money, send him a check, but my tax money shouldn't be used so someone can run their business.

 

[cobber]

I agree. As I said before, treat them the same as you'd treat petulant children - ignore them. So they spent a few cold nights at an unused bird sanctuary? Big deal.

Works for me. Don't set them up as martyrs. The nutsos calling for the feds to go in guns blazing might just create a 21st century John Brown. They might count to ten, and think again how this should be handled.

 

[dusty88]

The federal govt shouldn't be loaning anybody anything..... if you want to loan Ammon the Moocher your money, send him a check, but my tax money shouldn't be used so someone can run their business.

Oh I agree. But you and I aren't the only voters.

Do you understand how an SBA loan works?

When I bought my business I talked to 4 different banks. Three of them offered to set me up as an SBA loan; only 1 offered it without. I did not take the SBA loan, but many of my colleagues have.

Do you have this same judgment for anyone who took a student loan?

 

[Kutnupe14]

An SBA loan is mooching?

Do you take a mortgage deduction?

Know anyone who ever had a federally-backed or federally-granted student loan?

In case you haven't noticed, the federal government literally spends about 25% of our GDP and pretty well controls the other 75% of it. It's hard to participate in the economy without taking federal "benefits". And if you tried not to, you'd probably have to try hiding out in some of those lands that they control.

I don't even like this guy but jumping on him for his personal financial situation or for participating in our economy in any way is irrelevant.

I went school on my own dime, paid 100% out of pocket, and through scholarships. If we're going to try and hold up theses guys as Constitutional purists, then ALL their actions are fair game.