McCarthy loses Speaker vote 3 times…

[Ingomike]

The final authority for classification rests with the president and all subordinate authority flows from the president and when he so desires the 'procedure' is whatever he wishes it to be

THIS!

 

[Ingomike]

Sure, while President, Trump could have released all of the documents publicly, thereby declassifying them.

So just who is it that has authority to tell the President of the United States when, how, and what they can do with classified documents and from where do they get that authority?

 

[Ingomike]

Me thinks some here are uncomfortable with the constitutional power invested in the President…

 

[SheepDog4Life]

So just who is it that has authority to tell the President of the United States when, how, and what they can do with classified documents and from where do they get that authority?

Me thinks some here are uncomfortable with the constitutional power invested in the President…

Ummmm... the President and his AG insist that the documents are, in fact, still classified.

That's the problem with Trump simply saying or "thinking" the documents as declassified. What he said or thought ceased to matter on January 20, 2021 when he became a private citizen in possession of classified materials... with zero proof that they were declassified.

Of all the ways a President can declassify things share one important feature... that the next President knows... because everything classified is now HIS.

 

[Ingomike]

What he said or thought ceased to matter on January 20, 2021 when he became a private citizen in possession of classified materials... with zero proof that they were declassified.

What proof does the constitution require?

 

[chipbennett]

Really it only occupies one, at least when they are split control.

Having them split is a good thing though.

The Senate has to stop all business to deal with the articles of impeachment, once the House delivers them.

 

[chipbennett]

Do presidents have 'the ability to declassify anything'?

The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information

www.politifact.com

This is more or less what I assumed. The President is the head of the Executive branch. The administrative state is an arm of the Executive branch. The administrative state doesn't have any power or rulemaking authority that doesn't first derive from power or rulemaking authority first given to the President. Thus, the administrative state can't, in essence, "trip up" the President with this sort of bureaucratic red tape. If the President has declassification authority, then the President has declassification authority.

 

[LeftyGunner]

So just who is it that has authority to tell the President of the United States when, how, and what they can do with classified documents and from where do they get that authority?

Why are you so eager to allow men like Biden and Trump the absolute power to obscure their actions?

Our government(s) are meant to provide a suite of services specifically selected to benefit the common good, not provide a way to switch kings every few years.

That’s why the power belongs to the office, not the man.

Presidential records also belong to the office, not the man.

It is so because it must be so: if the office holds the power we have a president, if the man holds the power we have a king.

Remember…Hunter Biden is the heir apparent to the throne you seem to want so badly.

 

[LeftyGunner]

This is more or less what I assumed. The President is the head of the Executive branch. The administrative state is an arm of the Executive branch. The administrative state doesn't have any power or rulemaking authority that doesn't first derive from power or rulemaking authority first given to the President. Thus, the administrative state can't, in essence, "trip up" the President with this sort of bureaucratic red tape. If the President has declassification authority, then the President has declassification authority.

Chip, with due respect as always, I don’t see the issue as whether or not the president has the authority to classify and declassify materials, so much as whether or not Trump exercised that authority.

Declassified doesn‘t mean “the president can take that home”, it means the contents of certain public records are now subject to public revue. Classification has never been about what the president is allowed to see, it’s about what everyone else is allow to see.

How can government records be made available for public revue if the government doesn‘t know they are no longer classified, let alone if they are not in possession of those materials?

The president has to do something to inform the bureaucracy of the new status of that material…is there any evidence that he did?

 

[KLB]

The Senate has to stop all business to deal with the articles of impeachment, once the House delivers them.

That didn't do much to the Senate when Trump's charges were delivered. It would be the same this time.

 

[chipbennett]

Chip, with due respect as always, I don’t see the issue as whether or not the president has the authority to classify and declassify materials, so much as whether or not Trump exercised that authority.

Absolutely. I agree with you. In the end, it all boils down to "who gets to say whether the President exercised that authority: the President, or someone/something else?"

Declassified doesn‘t mean “the president can take that home”, it means the contents of certain public records are now subject to public revue. Classification has never been about what the president is allowed to see, it’s about what everyone else is allow to see.

Also agreed. But if the issue is merely the retention of records in general, why all the hyperbole in the media about classified documents?

How can government records be made available for public revue if the government doesn‘t know they are no longer classified, let alone if they are not in possession of those materials?

...a situation that has already been remedied. Also, it seems that the administrative state has engaged in selective enforcement/flexibility with respect to what constitutes compliance, based on who the President in question is.

The president has to do something to inform the bureaucracy of the new status of that material…is there any evidence that he did?

That, I don't know. And as long as the entire process is so blatantly partisan, then quite frankly, I can't be bothered to care too much.

 

[chipbennett]

That didn't do much to the Senate when Trump's charges were delivered. It would be the same this time.

It took them weeks to conduct the impeachment trials. Those are weeks not able to be spent screwing us over even more/harder.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Absolutely. I agree with you. In the end, it all boils down to "who gets to say whether the President exercised that authority: the President, or someone/something else?"

If no one else knows/knew that Trump exercised his authority over these documents while President... then he really by definition did not.

He left the White House as a private citizen... a peon just like the rest of us.

And most importantly THE President will answer that question and assert or not the right to do so... in fact already has through his administration, the DoJ and FBI... that verbal or "thinking" something declassified is not exercising that power. The power of the Presidency is the office and vested in the occupant of the office.

We only have ONE President at a time... words and thoughts are ephemeral... which is why anything meant to last past noon on inauguration day is put to paper.

 

[chipbennett]

If no one else knows/knew that Trump exercised his authority over these documents while President... then he really by definition did not.

He left the White House as a private citizen... a peon just like the rest of us.

And most importantly THE President will answer that question and assert or not the right to do so... in fact already has through his administration, the DoJ and FBI... that verbal or "thinking" something declassified is not exercising that power. The power of the Presidency is the office and vested in the occupant of the office.

We only have ONE President at a time... words and thoughts are ephemeral... which is why anything meant to last past noon on inauguration day is put to paper.

...which is all, of course, mere speculation, given that we aren't actually privy to what Trump may or may not have done, said, or documented while still President.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

What proof does the constitution require?

At this point, none.

THE President has asserted that the documents are not declassified and authorized his administration via the FBI to retrieve them. (not a move I agreed with at that point, but his right none the less)

Whatever Trump said at 11:59 am on Jan 20, 2021 means absolutely nothing at 12:01 pm, if the incoming President says it means nothing... the power is in the office, not the man.

 

[chipbennett]

At this point, none.

THE President has asserted that the documents are not declassified and authorized his administration via the FBI to retrieve them. (not a move I agreed with at that point, but his right none the less)

Whatever Trump said at 11:59 am on Jan 20, 2021 means absolutely nothing at 12:01 pm, if the incoming President says it means nothing... the power is in the office, not the man.

Are you envisioning a scenario in which Trump, while President, duly declassified documents, and then Biden, upon becoming President, later re-classified those documents?

If so, Trump, I assume, would be protected against ex post facto document classification. Or maybe you're describing something else?

 

[KLB]

Are you envisioning a scenario in which Trump, while President, duly declassified documents, and then Biden, upon becoming President, later re-classified those documents?

If so, Trump, I assume, would be protected against ex post facto document classification. Or maybe you're describing something else?

Sounds like he is saying there is no proof that Trump declassified the documents, therefor for all practical purposes, he did not.

 

[chipbennett]

Sounds like he is saying there is no proof that Trump declassified the documents, therefor for all practical purposes, he did not.

But we don't know whether or not that is true.

 

[KLB]

But we don't know whether or not that is true.

We don't know if anything the government says is true. Sadly, until proven otherwise, we have to take their word.

On the other hand though, when has Trump made claim it is. I don't remember him saying there should be proof they are not classified.

 

[chipbennett]

We don't know if anything the government says is true. Sadly, until proven otherwise, we have to take their word.

On the other hand though, when has Trump made claim it is. I don't remember him saying there should be proof they are not classified.

That's not how due process works. And I never take the government's word for anything.