Marines accused of desecrating bodies

[thebishopp]

Pissing on some dead enemies is probably at the bottom of the list for "bad things soldiers can do in the field". At the least a verbal reprimand and the worst a written one.

I do not hold for the humiliation or torture of prisoners - mainly because I do not like it when done to "our guys" and I do not like being a hypocrite - but since this guy was dead I do not see it as a "big deal" (then again I don't hold a particular reverence for dead bodies that some cultures and/or people do).

 

[ATOMonkey]

id say that is both. eliminate all threats in AO and prevent spill over of their hate back onto our soil

Ok, eliminate all threats in the AO. How would you define both "threat" and "AO"?

 

[PriestEG]

Indeed. Are you saying that we'll become allies with our enemy when this conflict is over?

dont think i hinted towards that in any way, shape or form. as commented about how long peace had lasted with nations of conflict druing WWII i pointed out that it has continued to last.

 

[PriestEG]

Ok, eliminate all threats in the AO. How would you define both "threat" and "AO"?

does this need to be broken down barney style..

 

[ATOMonkey]

Yes it does need to be broken down. This war does not define battlefields by terrain, or enemies by uniform.

This is a war against an ideal. A war against a tactic.

If you can not define your enemy, other than "the person shooting at you" you'll never be able to define victory.

 

[JStarr]

It is too bad they will be punished. The terrorists would not hesitate to cut our troops heads off and **** on thier bodies. Why do we need to have respect for them? They can use any means and equipment they need to, to kill us, but there are soo many rules that we have to follow.. It is war. Period. Fighting is not fair. You do and use whatever you need to do to win and come out somewhat unscathed. Yeah, they probably should not have pissed on them and video taped it, but they did. It is the media blowing this stuff way out of proportion. How many times has this happend and we have not heard about it..? I would guess a lot. They are fighting for US, and the very people they are fighting for are putting them on trial. Where are the war crimes for the enemy? Oh, wait... There are none, because they are cowards and won't own up to anything.

 

[ATOMonkey]

dont think i hinted towards that in any way, shape or form. as commented about how long peace had lasted with nations of conflict druing WWII i pointed out that it has continued to last.

And why has that peace continued to last? If you're going to use this as an example of how war can make lasting peace with nations, you should be ready to explain the whys and hows.

 

[Bmrdude]

ATOMonkey,

Well said. One can't defeat a belief or ideology!

 

[fireblade]

Let me ask you all this were the outrage for our Department of Defense........on the dumping of 200+ remain parts of United States soldiers ashes in a landfill......do you see any top brass going to suffer the same action this low level troops are going to get, for what they did to enemy remains.......the answer is no......... am glad i didn't allow media with us am glad i didn't allow my platoon to carry cameras they hated me for that but in the long run it was a good call.............


For all those out there who soo upset about this and our combat troops in a whole don't worry the cut backs that are coming to are military is insane and our future is not looking so good.
I see a time in the future you will be begging for the military we now have and the guys who serve in it including those marines who pissed on a dead enemy remains.

 

[thebishopp]

This is a seperate issue, and one I agree with. The only problem is how do you identify the first enemy that attacked us?

Everything is so intertwinded... Al Queda was run by Bin Laden who was also part of the Muj, who we supported, who later linked with the Taliban when they came to power.

So, who are the real bad guys and who is just in an alliance because it's convenient? The Afghans don't like the Arabs, but they tolerate them since the Arabs have money. Neither the Afghans nor the Arabs like the Americans, and most of the youth fighting for the Taliban and Al Queda are doing so because they're either paid or forced. The Taliban are fighting us because Al Queda tells them to, while at the sme time trying to establish themselves as the ruling force in Afghanistan.

How many people do we need to kill? The pakistanis support Al Queda, but not the Taliban, and certainly not openly. The Saudi's would just as soon kill us as look at us, but the Western world makes them rich. Europe more so than the US. The Iranians support the Taliban and Al Queda and Hezbollah, and Hamas, and the Chinese, who buy most of their oil.

How many heads do we need to crack? You start down that rabbit hole and you end up in WWIII real quick.

The war requires restraint if we want to contain it to just one **** hole country on the ass end of the world.

It goes back even further than that. The US has been meddling in "foreign affairs" and financing the overthrow of "unfavorable" governments for a long long time.

While I do not support the actions of our, imo self created, enemy, the fact is that we are not "innocent" in this whole affair and I think we need to temper our emotions with that knowledge.

I am of the firm opinion that we should have done what Patton wanted to do and just take over Russia then we would have a definite foothold in Europe and which point we could just attack and take over all of em. Crushing our enemies and taking what we want when we want it! No more problems with having to make "deals" for resources! No more problems with having to "lease" or "rent" tracts of land or waterways! IT WOULD ALL BE OURS MUHAHAHAHAHA... The UNITED WORLD OF AMERICA!!! LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

oh, I'm sorry, was I ranting?


But seriously I do think we should be dealing "above board" with other countries and not the way we currently handle things.

We don't like them, we stop trading with them.

They get aggressive with us we get aggressive back.

Not: They have something we want but they don't want to give it to us, or at a price we like, so we fund an overthrow of their government so that we can get it (points for anyone who knows of a famous waterway that we did this for).

Truth is the damage has been done. We only really have two options.

1. Back off, stop meddling in the affairs of other countries, secure our own borders and look to the welfare of out country (we got quite a lot of problems in our own backyard that need to be taken care of first).

2. Take over the world and do it as fast as possible with no hesitation.

Of course neither option will totally solve our problems and each option comes with it's own list of possible fallout.

 

[PriestEG]

And why has that peace continued to last? If you're going to use this as an example of how war can make lasting peace with nations, you should be ready to explain the whys and hows.

why? ill use germany as a quick example.. after ww2 and we had completly destroyed the higher structure of the Nazi regieme, humiliated the nation as a whole with the many reparations and policies designed to punish and humiliate germany, and proceeded to implement policy to prevent germany from repeating similar actions..

somewhat more complicated with the war agains 'gangs, terrorist groups, ununiformed enemys' but the same principles apply.

 

[PriestEG]

ATOMonkey,

Well said. One can't defeat a belief or ideology!

but you can cut the passage of the Idealogy or belief.. if a parent smokes dope around their kids, kids then think its ok to smoke dope.

haji dad hates americans, haji kids then grow to hate americans..

end the cycle and the idealogy may be able to change or morph into a less agressive, more passive dislike



this has gotten severly off track for the video of the jar heads.. away from foreign military policy and back to reality good stuff gents

 

[thebishopp]

Let me ask you all this were the outrage for our Department of Defense........on the dumping of 200+ remain parts of United States soldiers ashes in a landfill......do you see any top brass going to suffer the same action this low level troops are going to get, for what they did to enemy remains.......the answer is no......... am glad i didn't allow media with us am glad i didn't allow my platoon to carry cameras they hated me for that but in the long run it was a good call.............


For all those out there who soo upset about this and our combat troops in a whole don't worry the cut back that are coming to are military is insane and our future is not looking so good.
I see a time in the future you will be begging for the military we now have and the guys who serve in it including those marines who pissed on a dead enemy remains.

Actually there may be a point in time that we are begging people to rise up and oppose the military.


Do you even know who the "enemy" is? Used to be the "communists" now it's the "muslims", now "terrorist" which is a term that can be applied to everyone who disagrees with the government. "Terrorists" have been around for a long time, in fact our own founding fathers were "terrorists".

The war in Iraq had nothing to do with "terrorism". It is well known that Sadam opposed "Al Queda" and the Taliban. Hell we used to be buddy buddy with him back when we put him and his brother in power and encouraged him to fight Iran - of course that "friendship" fell apart when they found out we then went to Iran and supplied them with weapons hoping they would kill/weaken each other.

Now we are in Afghanistan seemingly trying to do what the Russians failed to do (in fact we aided the Afghans against the Russians).

It's really quite ridiculous.

The truth is that while we need to always prepare for conflict the "enemy within" should be feared much more than the "enemy without".

 

[ATOMonkey]

why? ill use germany as a quick example.. after ww2 and we had completly destroyed the higher structure of the Nazi regieme, humiliated the nation as a whole with the many reparations and policies designed to punish and humiliate germany, and proceeded to implement policy to prevent germany from repeating similar actions..

somewhat more complicated with the war agains 'gangs, terrorist groups, ununiformed enemys' but the same principles apply.

Yes, but we also did that in WWI and it did not prevent WWII.

Another dictator simply took over, and used hate, bigotry, and Nationalism to fuel the furver for another war.

So, what prevented another dictator for seizing control of Germany after WWII?

The communists controlled roughly half of the country, and they hated our stinking guts. If they had taken control of all of Berlin, and thus the country, WWIII could have very well been fought in the 50s or 60s as communists vs capitalists.

So, simply defeating the enemy is not what resulted in a lasting peace.

 

[thebishopp]

why? ill use germany as a quick example.. after ww2 and we had completly destroyed the higher structure of the Nazi regieme, humiliated the nation as a whole with the many reparations and policies designed to punish and humiliate germany, and proceeded to implement policy to prevent germany from repeating similar actions...

We did this in the first WW (points for anyone who remembers what idiotic thing kicked off that one).

In fact the conditions of surrender were so severe that it caused massive amounts of animosity and hatred in the German people which Hitler was able to effectively use in his rise to power.

 

[thebishopp]

Yes, but we also did that in WWI and it did not prevent WWII.

Another dictator simply took over, and used hate, bigotry, and Nationalism to fuel the furver for another war.

So, what prevented another dictator for seizing control of Germany after WWII?

The communists controlled roughly half of the country, and they hated our stinking guts. If they had taken control of all of Berlin, and thus the country, WWIII could have very well been fought in the 50s or 60s as communists vs capitalists.

So, simply defeating the enemy is not what resulted in a lasting peace.

lol you beat me too it.

 

[PriestEG]

We did this in the first WW (points for anyone who remembers what idiotic thing kicked off that one).

In fact the conditions of surrender were so severe that it caused massive amounts of animosity and hatred in the German people which Hitler was able to effectively use in his rise to power.

the ottoman empire trying to expand (aka austria hungry i believe)..

that right or am i way off base?

 

[ATOMonkey]

but you can cut the passage of the Idealogy or belief.. if a parent smokes dope around their kids, kids then think its ok to smoke dope.

haji dad hates americans, haji kids then grow to hate americans..

end the cycle and the idealogy may be able to change or morph into a less agressive, more passive dislike



this has gotten severly off track for the video of the jar heads.. away from foreign military policy and back to reality good stuff gents

So, let me get this straight. A kid hates America. Americans kill his father. How does this make him hate America less?

 

[PriestEG]

So, let me get this straight. A kid hates America. Americans kill his father. How does this make him hate America less?

hahaha when in the heck did i say anything about killing his father.. i said cut the cycle..

 

[ATOMonkey]

We did this in the first WW (points for anyone who remembers what idiotic thing kicked off that one).

In fact the conditions of surrender were so severe that it caused massive amounts of animosity and hatred in the German people which Hitler was able to effectively use in his rise to power.

The assassination of the Arch Duke Ferdinand.