Marines accused of desecrating bodies

[thebishopp]

Claiming that Ishmael founded Islam, even if he had been a local patriarch 2 millennia before Muhammad, makes as much sense as saying that Jesus founded Methodism. It's cockeyed history. At least the Hebrew scripture was about 2000 years closer to Ishmael's lifetime. The demonizing of the West is the contention that the Christian West just up and started attacking the poor innocent Muslim world rather than the reverse which is actually what happened. Demonizing the West is drawing moral equivalence between Western politics and warfare last employed in the Dark Ages, as if currently relative, with the savagery shown by our 21st century enemies. It's misleading, false, untruthful and calculated to aid our adversaries and demoralize our fighting men and allies.

Even the versions of the bible we have today (and there are more than a few English "translations") state that "God" said he would make him a father of 12 princes and would make him into a "great nation". Is Muhammad a descendant and a "prophet" of god? How the heck would I know, in fact how the heck would you know unless you are suggesting you know the mind of "God" as well as the one true faith (man every time I say "one true faith" it it sounds like something out of a JR Tolkien novel).

I don't see how the validity of their claims are any less than the validity of the claims of Judism or the multitude of various "christian based faiths". There are so many different denominations of Christianity I don't think anyone really knows the exact number (some estimates are in the 6 digits).

Islam and Judaism both claim to follow the same "God". We as a "christian nation" have sided with Judaism. While I am sure there are a host of political reasons behind it as well, as far as religion goes that's about it.

In the end it's only going to matter to whoever wins. If England had been successful we would all be reading about how evil those dang terrorist and rebels to the crown were and how fortunate we are that they were defeated. Probably be a lot of stuff thrown in the history book of how uncivilized and savage they were but that England, through the help of "God Almighty" was able to quell their uprising thus proving that "God" loved England more.

As far as it demoralizing our troops, I still don't see how it demoralizes them. Ok so what if Islamics claim that their religion is based on Ishmael?

Well, ok if the whole reason we are fighting the Muslims is because they are evil heathen pagans who have twisted the word of "God" and they must be punished then yes, I can see how acknowledging that they could be a legitimate "religion" could be demoralizing.

BUT if the whole reason we are fighting is because they attacked us "first", without any provocation on our part", what does it matter if their religion "comes from" a son of Abraham and may or may not be just as "valid" as Judaism?

 

[thebishopp]

No disrespect meant here but isn't this just a discussion about what historical figures dreamed up their lines of BS and when they did it.

Just trying to put it in perspective.

Pretty much and one of my points. My opinion is that religion is used quite often to justify things. I believe it is second only to Nationalism in riling people up and encouraging them to do things they may not normally do and I do not believe either side in this long ongoing conflict is innocent of this. I believe it is one of the dumbest reasons to make allies with someone or go to war with another.

 

[Compatriot G]

"Islam and Judaism both claim to follow the same "God"."

This is an incorrect statement. Ask a Muslim. They will tell you they DO NOT worship the same "God" as the Jews or the Christians. A quick study of the Bible will confirm that "YHWH" is not the same as "Allah". A quick study of the Koran will show the same thing, as well.

 

[CarmelHP]

Even the versions of the bible we have today (and there are more than a few English "translations") state that "God" said he would make him a father of 12 princes and would make him into a "great nation". Is Muhammad a descendant and a "prophet" of god? How the heck would I know, in fact how the heck would you know unless you are suggesting you know the mind of "God" as well as the one true faith (man every time I say "one true faith" it it sounds like something out of a JR Tolkien novel).

I don't see how the validity of their claims are any less than the validity of the claims of Judism or the multitude of various "christian based faiths". There are so many different denominations of Christianity I don't think anyone really knows the exact number (some estimates are in the 6 digits).

Islam and Judaism both claim to follow the same "God". We as a "christian nation" have sided with Judaism. While I am sure there are a host of political reasons behind it as well, as far as religion goes that's about it.

In the end it's only going to matter to whoever wins. If England had been successful we would all be reading about how evil those dang terrorist and rebels to the crown were and how fortunate we are that they were defeated. Probably be a lot of stuff thrown in the history book of how uncivilized and savage they were but that England, through the help of "God Almighty" was able to quell their uprising thus proving that "God" loved England more.

As far as it demoralizing our troops, I still don't see how it demoralizes them. Ok so what if Islamics claim that their religion is based on Ishmael?

Well, ok if the whole reason we are fighting the Muslims is because they are evil heathen pagans who have twisted the word of "God" and they must be punished then yes, I can see how acknowledging that they could be a legitimate "religion" could be demoralizing.

BUT if the whole reason we are fighting is because they attacked us "first", without any provocation on our part", what does it matter if their religion "comes from" a son of Abraham and may or may not be just as "valid" as Judaism?

You're using some cut and paste, cobbled up historical-religious argument to suggest that the 21st century Western culture is just the same as the enemies that behead reporters and strap suicide bombs on pre-schoolers in order to defend Taliban enemies. Stop turning it into a religious debate, it's not a religious debate and such are prohibited on INGO. I'm not interested in a cockeyed, jacked-up argument that Ishmael and Isaac founded two adversarial religions, therefore, anything the Taliban/Al Queda does is justified because Abraham sent Ishmael away or there was a fight over Jerusalem 900 years ago. That is, essentially, the "logic" of your argument. The fight is with the current Taliban exiles and Al Queda operatives.

 

[thebishopp]

"Islam and Judaism both claim to follow the same "God"."

This is an incorrect statement. Ask a Muslim. They will tell you they DO NOT worship the same "God" as the Jews or the Christians. A quick study of the Bible will confirm that "YHWH" is not the same as "Allah". A quick study of the Koran will show the same thing, as well.

They both follow the "god of abraham". Period. Isaac was a son of Abraham, and so was Ishmael. Period.

Unless of course you are saying that Ishmael began following a "different god" then it doesn't matter what they choose to call them in their own languages. The Jews themselves had more than one word for "Him".

Here are some more for you from the Old Testament (by the way this is not an exhaustive list, there are more):

El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

-------------

If I say my religion is based upon Ishmael as a son of Abraham and that I follow the "god of abraham" but want to call him "boogaboogabooga" and in my language that means "supreme being" or something to that effect it does not change the fact that I am saying I follow the "god of abraham".

In fact isn't this one of the main problems with the various denominations of Christianity? All fighting over which way to worship, which "terminology" or "interpretation" is the "correct" one?

 

[thebishopp]

You're using some cut and paste, cobbled up historical-religious argument to suggest that the 21st century Western culture is just the same as the enemies that behead reporters and strap suicide bombs on pre-schoolers in order to defend Taliban enemies. Stop turning it into a religious debate, it's not a religious debate and such are prohibited on INGO. I'm not interested in a cockeyed, jacked-up argument that Ishmael and Isaac founded two adversarial religions, therefore, anything the Taliban/Al Queda does is justified because Abraham sent Ishmael away or there was a fight over Jerusalem 900 years ago. That is, essentially, the "logic" or your argument. The fight is with the current Taliban exiles and Al Queda operatives.

I did not state anywhere that "they" were justified in their aggression because Abraham sent Ishmael away or that there was a fight over Jerusalem. In fact I don't think anyone really, really, knows what actually started this whole mess. For all we know it could actually have been because Ishmael was cast off for Isaac and he was pissed, or it could have been about who got screwed on a goat deal.

You have made that the argument.

What I DID state was that we have been involved in middle eastern affairs for some time... involvement that I do not think we should have been involved in (not to mention other countries - like how we got the panama canal). We are by no means "blameless" in all of this and it could be said that our "foreign policy" has done much to create enemies.

My whole point is that NEITHER SIDE has any more or less of a valid argument why "their" religion is the "correct" one and that Governments (or people wanting power of some sort) have long used religion to get what they want. Why? Well that should be obvious from some of the posts on the subject.

Now, I'm not the one turning it into a religious debate. I am only answering your posts. Why you feel the need to throw insults at me I have no idea, I suppose I could chalk it up to religious fanaticism.

In fact if you are not interested in it then I suggest you bow out rather than complain about how you aren't interested in it while engaging in the discussion.

Oh and As far as suicide bombers go, the "taliban" or "al queda" are not the only group who have used suicide bombers or young children as "suicide bombers".

 

[thebishopp]

By the way, just in case you need to be reminded, the whole topic of "religion" came into play because it was an opinion that it was one of the primary motivators behind the "war".

You turned it into a religious argument saying... oh here it is:

Muhammad plucked the story of Ishmael out of the Hebrew scripture some 18 centuries after the Ishmael story was recorded. To say Ishmael "began" Islam is such a grossly distorted version of history that no honest person could believe it. I'm not getting into a religious debate, but you're history is incredibly biased and grossly perverted to demonize the West.

- by the way "I saw what you did there"

Which was in reply to a post where I stated that the authority for things like the Crusades and the Inquisition were in fact derived from the bible.

In fact I believed I ended that particular post with:

Edit: My point being that the Koran, Torah, Bible, any of them has passages that can be used to justify what some of these people are doing.

 

[2cool9031]

They should have cut their heads off and placed them on pikes.

 

[jeremy]

I think I am going to start my own Religion....

We will be Drinking and Dancing at the Church of Hank Williams...

 

[thebishopp]

They should have cut their heads off and placed them on pikes.

Lol there is something to be said for this tactic and while It did work for Vlad "the impaler" (for a time anyway), I'm not sure if it will work for an enemy that is convinced of it's own "righteousness".

Our current "enemies", imo, believe they are fighting for something and not just mere expansion as the Ottoman empire was back in Vlad's day so they will probably be not so easily swayed and in fact may use such a situation to recruit more fighters against us.

The fact is that, as others have posted, we have a few choices.

1. Get out, and stay out. That means no more foreign aid to the middle east as well as no more backdoor deals or assassination plots or financing the coup of one government over another that we happen to favor at the time. We trade with the people we like, we do not trade with the people we do not like.

2. Total genocide. You will have to kill them down to every last man, woman, and child. Everyone and once you start you can not stop until they are all dead. After that plan to start killing anyone else who opposes or questions our policy as they are future enemies. Kill them and their families, even the babies just to be safe (notice there is no purple). Since there is no real way to know who is an "enemy" or not we will need to go door to door. Need to do it here at "home" as well.

3. Attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people. How this can be done in the current climate who knows. There is so much distrust and hatred I think if such a plan were to succeed it would take generations to accomplish. Is it possible, who knows, but at the very least it will be the longest and hardest road of them all.

 

[thebishopp]

I think I am going to start my own Religion....

We will be Drinking and Dancing at the Church of Hank Williams...

Senior or Junior?

 

[jeremy]

Senior or Junior?

Junior who?!

 

[thebishopp]

Junior who?!

I apologize for my heresy. Please don't smite me.

 

[malern28us]

Lol there is something to be said for this tactic and while It did work for Vlad "the impaler" (for a time anyway), I'm not sure if it will work for an enemy that is convinced of it's own "righteousness".

Our current "enemies", imo, believe they are fighting for something and not just mere expansion as the Ottoman empire was back in Vlad's day so they will probably be not so easily swayed and in fact may use such a situation to recruit more fighters against us.

The fact is that, as others have posted, we have a few choices.

1. Get out, and stay out. That means no more foreign aid to the middle east as well as no more backdoor deals or assassination plots or financing the coup of one government over another that we happen to favor at the time. We trade with the people we like, we do not trade with the people we do not like.

2. Total genocide. You will have to kill them down to every last man, woman, and child. Everyone and once you start you can not stop until they are all dead. After that plan to start killing anyone else who opposes or questions our policy as they are future enemies. Kill them and their families, even the babies just to be safe (notice there is no purple).

3. Attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people. How this can be done in the current climate who knows. There is so much distrust and hatred I think if such a plan were to succeed it would take generations to accomplish. Is it possible, who knows, but at the very least it will be the longest and hardest road of them all.

I would say #1. I could not ask anyone to do #2 or#3 as I could not do them myself.

 

[thebishopp]

I would say #1. I could not ask anyone to do #2 or#3 as I could not do them myself.

Jefferson would be proud of you, in fact that was his expressed view on "foreign relations".

 

[jeremy]

Should Communion be with Jack or Jim?!

 

[thebishopp]

Should Communion be with Jack or Jim?!

John...

Lt. Col. Frank Slade: Clear them little bottles off. And when I get off the phone here, call up Hyman and tell him I want it wall to wall with John Daniels.
Charlie Simms: Don't you mean Jack Daniels?
Lt. Col. Frank Slade: He may be Jack to you son, but when you've known him as long as I have... that's a joke.

 

[malern28us]

Should Communion be with Jack or Jim?!

Jack. Jim is for wusses.

 

[jeremy]

By the way Communion will be both Friday Night, and Saturday Night...

 

[malern28us]

I am biased. I toured the Jack Daniels distillery