Man, I hate Liberals

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  • dburkhead

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    Mar 18, 2008
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    Again, I don't think you object to the fact that force will be used to enforce the law, really. The same force backs the tax collection used for the government programs you agree with as well. Surely you think it is necessary to collect taxes by force to pay for the military. I'm sure you'll feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    <Sigh> There is this subject called "reading." I commend it to you.

    Use of force to perform legitimate functions of government is one thing. Use of force to take my money and give it to someone else for anything other then as payment for services rendered toward those legitimate functions is a whole other ballgame.

    Or are you saying that if use of force is ever justified it is always justified?

    There are two parts to the NFA rules: the tax and the background check. It's important to the government that NFA items remain in the hands of hobbyists and/or sane non-criminals. The Branch Davidians were neither. The law exists today to give the government a way to take particularly dangerous weapons from nutjobs. The ATF went to Waco to remove the weapons from the nutjobs.

    The Branch Davidians were already gun dealers. They had already passed background checks just as thorough as that required for NFA arms. As for the rest, well, it's pretty clear that you've bought into the post Waco propaganda campaign.

    I'd be completely with you on removing the huge taxes on NFA items, but I'm not interested in convicted felons owning machine guns or DDs. I'd rather see most AOWs, SBRs, and SBSs removed from the list of NFA items, but that's a whole different discussion.

    The problem is that the NFA does nothing to stop convicted felons from getting them if they want them.

    My point is that nobody wants to use force, but all law is eventually predicated on the use of force, and this is not particularly true for the tax code. I'm assuming you aren't against the law, or even large parts of the tax code, so this really couldn't be your point.

    Yes, all law is essentially force. That's why you should be extremely careful about what you do using force of law. When you make something a law (and government programs are, by definition, law) you are using force to impose your will on others.

    The bar for justifying that use of force should be a lot harder than it actually is.

    It has been true in my experience.

    Then so much the worse for your experience.

    There are certainly people with this attitude. There are those who are out to "get theirs". They are the exception, and not the rule. As long as you have social systems, you'll have free riders. There are people driving electric cars who don't pay the road tax through buying gas. There are people who never report their tips as income. There are all kind of things. This isn't proof that we shouldn't have a system for those who truly need it. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the extreme.

    Um, no. The people with the victim mentality I am talking about are "leaders" such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and politicians like Pelosi who say, in essence, that folk cannot succeed on their own and need the government handout to get by.

    Do you really think it's just coincidence that the underclass (and before you start screaming that's a "term of art" in sociology--look it up) has grown dramatically since the passage of things like Johnson's "Great society" programs.

    Tell people they need a handout to survive. Tell them your party is the one keeping them alive and that the other party wants them to starve. Who do you think those people who bought into and became dependent on that handout are going to vote for? Then grow the number of people who are in that dependent class. You honestly cannot see the inherent cynicism in that system?

    The Great Society programs were mostly good. The Civil Rights acts were very good on the whole. The jobs programs, and programs to assist the poor into college or getting them jobs were good, and have almost certainly paid for themselves in the form of increased tax revenue. Federal programs for the encouragement of secondary education has been instrumental in creating America's legendary post-secondary education system (envy of the world). Medicare and Medicaid have created a country where the blind do not any longer roam the streets in want of money. The old do not suffer so much from the tyranny of declining health. Cars are safer. Credit card companies have to tell you the whole story of the cost of credit. The environment is cared for in many ways it was not before.

    You really have drunk the :koolaid:. None of those claims are supported by actual facts. Just a few points: Our post secondary education system is as good as it is despite, rather than because of, our primary and secondary education systems. I've been on Medicaid and if you think multi month waits to get in to see a doctor are a good thing, have I got a deal for you--cash only, please in small bills. And the propaganda about how it was in the past completely ignores private organizations like Goodwill and the Salvation Army which provided much of the aid--from freely donated gifts--that is now provided more poorly by the government.

    You are simply too young to remember what things were like before the "Great Society". Most of what you have been told about that are lies. People, by and large, are more than willing to give to help out the poor. At least the deserving poor. (Check out the play "Carousel" sometime. It has an interesting take on attitudes of a bygone day.)

    The Great Society had nothing to do with helping the poor. I'm one of those who is old enough (albeit barely) to remember what things were like before this so-called "Great Society" and how things have actually gotten worse in just about every metric since then.

    The Great Society, despite all the propaganda presented in its support, was not and is not about helping the poor. It is nothing more than a power grab by folk who believe in government control in more and more (eventually all) aspects of our lives.

    I'm not too happy about the cultural spending in the programs. There are many parts of it that are far from perfect, but it was a good program for the most part.

    If by "good program" you mean "taking more control of people's lives, creating a permanent underclass, and otherwise making things worse than they were before" then I suppose.

    There's a line I heard many years ago that has stuck with me: a liberal counts "compassion" by how many people get government assistance; a conservative, by how many people no longer need it.

    Despite what the propagandists would have you believe, people were not starving in the streets before the Great Society. Even during the Great Depression people may have had to go to "soup kitchens" to eat, but the soup kitchens (privately run, not government run) were there.

    Now, some folk claim that going to soup kitchens to eat was demeaning, but, seriously, getting ones food from donations freely offered or from "donations" extracted by threat of force, which is really more demeaning?

    Ensuring the general welfare is a legitimate government function. What it is, usually, is giving out rods. The government can't make you want to learn to fish, but it can feed you while you figure it out for yourself. It can also feed you when there aren't any fish in the sea, or when you are too old to operate the oars.

    Um, no. First off, the term "general welfare" appears in two places in the Constitution. First place is in the Preamble and grants no powers. Second place is in Article one under the powers granted to Congress, but note that it's in the specific part about raising taxes for the common defense and general welfare. But, as we read on farther we see that the specific powers congress is granted include raising and supporting armies, and calling out and arming the militia. Guess what, they've just defined their powers with respect to that "common defense" part of the tax raising power. So, clearly, the other powers listed in Article 1 are what is meant by "general welfare". That first part, granting the power to levy taxes for the common defense and general welfare only grants them the power to raise funds for those other enumerated powers. It does not grant power to change the English language, co-opt the word "welfare" to mean handouts to indigents, and then use the force of law to make a class permanently dependent on those handouts. Simply deciding to call something "welfare" does not make it Constitutional.

    We all benefit from the social safety net's existence. It's true that most will never use it, but it is good to be prepared.

    The being prepared you are defending here is the the functional equivalent of preparing by making sure you have plenty of guns to rob your neighbors so you don't go hungry. You're just having the government do it for you.

    You think they don't? The top marginal tax rate is lower than it has been for most of the history of the tax. Reagan set it near where it is today.
    It isn't Democrats who concern themselves with the AMT or Capital Gains or the top marginal tax rate. It is Democrats who are advocating increasing taxes on the rich. Warren Buffet pays less in taxes, proportionally, than his secretary, and he'll b the first to tell you that's wrong.

    You continue to drink the :koolaid:. Republican tax cuts affect everybody. I am far from rich and yet, strangely enough, I've also benefited from these tax cuts. Republicans cut taxes on everybody but since "the rich" are part of "everybody" it gets spun as "tax cuts on the rich". Democrats raise taxes on everybody (well, everybody who has an income) and that gets spun as "tax the rich."

    As for the Warren Buffet thing, I suspect somebody is pointing to gross, not net, income. Among the things that are the difference between those two factors is that secretary's salary.

    All of these programs were tested and found to be legal at the federal level. If they weren't, they would be made to be. Ensuring the general welfare is a legitimate function of the federal government.

    So much the worse for the Federal Courts then. A precedent was set with FDR's blackmail of the Supreme Court of his day to get Social Security past muster. The rest follows from that. That's one of the problems with precedent in legal cases is that bad decisions made by bad means are just as much precedent as good decisions.

    I'm aware that conservatives give more to the poor freely. For one thing, they're richer.

    Another canard. That the democratic party keeps making that claim doesn't make it so.

    I wasn't aware I was a liberal. I mean, if you say so.

    If you don't want to be thought a liberal, then maybe you should stop making liberal points, repeating liberal propaganda as holy writ, and otherwise acting as a liberal.

    It's really amazing how many people out there play the "I'm not a liberal but..." while having really nothing but liberal positions (or maybe a token "conservative" position here or there). It's not amazing that they do it. It's amazing that they expect anybody to fall for it.
     

    dburkhead

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    He is also saying that because someone has become successful that they have a responsibility to help other people out.

    Did anyone want to share the burden with me when I started my company or help me and my family when our income is down 73% this past year?
    :rolleyes:

    Did anyone want to share the burden when I spent my time in libraries rather than out drinking? When I spent such money as I had buying books rather than on tobacco or other drugs? When I was actually in school rather than playing hooky?

    When I picked a hard subject in college rather than some "liberal arts" degree that translates to "do you want fries with that"?

    When I was doing all the things that made me employable with a nice paying job and doing without in the present so I would do better in the future?

    Where were all these people with their hands in my pocket then?
     

    indytechnerd

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    Nov 17, 2008
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    Here and There
    ...I seek to tax from those most able to pay, in order to invest in those who are not yet self sufficient due to circumstance...
    Karl Marx said:
    ...only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

    As a general comment, did any of you complaining about me using some deductions get a tax refund this year? If you got some of your money back, why are you :crying: about me getting some of mine? You did not provide any subsidy to my children, so the amount of MY money returned to me after my involuntary loan the the .gov should be of no consequence to you.
     

    smoking357

    Shooter
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    Jul 14, 2008
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    When I picked a hard subject in college rather than some "liberal arts" degree

    Ah, certain matters now an identifiable genesis. "Hard," indeed. This Republican revulsion of Language, Music, Philosophy, History, Art and Culture makes the party quite unappealing to those of better breeding. Sure, some Republicans may have societal utility in analyzing hysteresis loops or some other mechanical question with a knowable answer, but the help is not invited into the front of the house for an evening reading of Wordsworth.

    You must know that the only true college degree is the Bachelor of Arts. The Bachelor of Science is a vocational degree that is a recent contrivance. It was barely seen as "college," considered merely a means of imparting a specific skill. It was considered a waste of effort to give such students a proper college education, since they wouldn't use it in a laborer's career. It's to America's great discredit and disservice that college has been so cheapened that many matriculants now believe that college necessarily implies a job. Ars gratia artis is uncompelling to the baser classes.

    What's the shortest book ever written? Great Republican Poets.
     

    XDinmyXJ

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    These days, it seems I can't find a conservative to save my behind. On Thursday, at Chick-fil-A, I heard some guys talking and bragging about how many deductions they got for their kids. And one of these guys had a pickup with a couple anti-Obama stickers on it. It was all I could do hold my tongue. After seeing the truck he got into, I wished I could tell these pieces of scum that they're bigger Liberals than Obama ever thought about being.

    These RINO Liberals think they should get some more money from the rest because they need it more. Those ain't my kids in your house. Ain't my problem. How does your bedroom fun get to suck the money out of my piggy bank? You want me to pay for your kids? Fine. You buy me a few things I got on my list. Well, you can't afford that list, so let's just knock off the socialism.

    These scumballs who claim child deductions need to find a new socialist country that's more to their liking and move there. You don't get more money in a free market because of what you "need." You get more money based on what you earn. We ain't earn our money to "spread it around" to your family because you got more mouths sucking off of my wallet.

    I think that all these Liberal socialist scumballs who take a deduction on their tax forms for every kid they have need to be called out and insulted for being the Liberals they are.

    I got one more on Carmel school spending, but I'll wait on that.

    So, Do you have kids? Do you not take out a deduction for each of your children? Raising a kid is not cheap and since the government allows you to take out a deduction for each dependent Whats the harm? Its not like the guy said "i'm gonna sit on my ass and get money for free because i don't work and shouldn't have to its a free country". Step away from the internetz!:coffee:
     

    SavageEagle

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    Ah, certain matters now an identifiable genesis. "Hard," indeed. This Republican revulsion of Language, Music, Philosophy, History, Art and Culture makes the party quite unappealing to those of better breeding. Sure, some Republicans may have societal utility in analyzing hysteresis loops or some other mechanical question with a knowable answer, but the help is not invited into the front of the house for an evening reading of Wordsworth.

    You must know that the only true college degree is the Bachelor of Arts. The Bachelor of Science is a vocational degree that is a recent contrivance. It was barely seen as "college," considered merely a means of imparting a specific skill. It was considered a waste of effort to give such students a proper college education, since they wouldn't use it in a laborer's career. It's to America's great discredit and disservice that college has been so cheapened that many matriculants now believe that college necessarily implies a job. Ars gratia artis is uncompelling to the baser classes.

    What's the shortest book ever written? Great Republican Poets.

    The geyser of stroking365 has spewed again! :rockwoot: I can't wait to see the response to this mindless.... whatever it is. :coffee: :popcorn:
     

    tuoder

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    Oct 20, 2009
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    So you are equating welfare dollars as a means to prevent homelessness, drug abuse and thievery?

    Surely you must be joking.

    Yes. A significant portion of those who don't have, steal. You can keep half a dozen people on welfare for what it costs to imprison one. Of course, that will never work out if you don't also attempt to make sure people are attempting to improve their situation, and that it is hard to live on welfare, among other things.

    He is also saying that because someone has become successful that they have a responsibility to help other people out.

    Did anyone want to share the burden with me when I started my company or help me and my family when our income is down 73% this past year?
    :rolleyes:

    Could you imagine what it would have been like if they hadn't? The government is the primary agent of creating the atmosphere of peace and stability required for a business to thrive. Of course, they can't control global supply and demand very much, but I think we agree that they're better off not trying.

    <Sigh> There is this subject called "reading." I commend it to you.

    I'm attempting to have a civil discussion. If I've offended you, I'm sorry.

    dburkhead said:
    Use of force to perform legitimate functions of government is one thing. Use of force to take my money and give it to someone else for anything other then as payment for services rendered toward those legitimate functions is a whole other ballgame.

    That's my point exactly. It's not the taxation (by force) that bothers you, it's the spending.

    dburkhead said:
    Or are you saying that if use of force is ever justified it is always justified?

    Neither. I'm saying that the use of force is necessary and proper to enforce a just law, after all other avenues are exhausted. I don't think you disagree, really.

    dburkhead said:
    The Branch Davidians were already gun dealers. They had already passed background checks just as thorough as that required for NFA arms. As for the rest, well, it's pretty clear that you've bought into the post Waco propaganda campaign.

    Do you have any evidence that demonstrates what that I said is false?



    dburkhead said:
    The problem is that the NFA does nothing to stop convicted felons from getting them if they want them.

    Yes it does, the vast majority of gun dealers will not sell you one if you are a felon, because you will not pass the background check. Of course, it is still possible to build one or buy one from an illicit source if you can find one, but a felon can't just drop into a Bass Pro Shop and buy a Sten using a payday loan. These restrictions make them less available to criminals. Valuable collector's items, legally possessed, don't often make their way into the hands of criminals.

    Of course, I do want to see some of the restrictions loosened up, but not where the danger of the weapon exceeds the utility.

    dburkhead said:
    Yes, all law is essentially force. That's why you should be extremely careful about what you do using force of law. When you make something a law (and government programs are, by definition, law) you are using force to impose your will on others.

    The bar for justifying that use of force should be a lot harder than it actually is.

    I agree with that it should be lower, we only differ in what regard and what degree.

    dburkhead said:
    Then so much the worse for your experience.

    :D

    dburkhead said:
    Um, no. The people with the victim mentality I am talking about are "leaders" such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and politicians like Pelosi who say, in essence, that folk cannot succeed on their own and need the government handout to get by.

    Do you really think it's just coincidence that the underclass (and before you start screaming that's a "term of art" in sociology--look it up) has grown dramatically since the passage of things like Johnson's "Great society" programs.

    There are people who play victim, certainly. There are leaders and followers and a whole movement of them. There are people who will never do better than that. My point is twofold: there are those who will play victim who are not, but there are also victims who need help, and the trick is finding the difference. Secondly I'm familiar with the work of Oscar Lewis, and his concept of the underclass. Even he distinguished between the deserving poor, and the undeserving poor.


    dburkhead said:
    Tell people they need a handout to survive. Tell them your party is the one keeping them alive and that the other party wants them to starve. Who do you think those people who bought into and became dependent on that handout are going to vote for? Then grow the number of people who are in that dependent class. You honestly cannot see the inherent cynicism in that system?

    Very few people honestly advocate living on handouts, as a rule. I certainly don't. They should only do when it is really necessary, and it is, on occasion, necessary.

    There are cynical people who see nothing better intheir lives than accepting a handout, and there are cynical people who see government as, largely, nothing more than a handout. I am neither of these people. I suspect you are the latter.

    dburkhead said:
    You really have drunk the :koolaid:. None of those claims are supported by actual facts. Just a few points: Our post secondary education system is as good as it is despite, rather than because of, our primary and secondary education systems. I've been on Medicaid and if you think multi month waits to get in to see a doctor are a good thing, have I got a deal for you--cash only, please in small bills. And the propaganda about how it was in the past completely ignores private organizations like Goodwill and the Salvation Army which provided much of the aid--from freely donated gifts--that is now provided more poorly by the government.

    I'm happy we agree on the state of our primary and secondary education systems. They run the gambit from downright terrible to the envy of the world, depending on district, property value, and tax rate. We've managed to send many of our best and brightest to the greatest colleges in the world. Who gave them the land, the grants, and loans? Who lends money to poor students so that they can get a leg up in life if they're willing to work for it? State and Federal government programs do that. If you can pay, even a part, the system is set up to make you give up what you have in order to become educated. I just think that if you're willing to work hard, and do your part, that it's good to break down other barriers that stand in your way, such as the conditions surrounding your birth.

    The fact that the government is not always run as efficiently as it could be is not proof that it should be dismantled, it's proof that it should be fixed.

    I completely agree that private charitable institutions do a lot of great work, and the govenment rightly supports many private charitable institutions through grants, but when it comes to creating an equal opportunity in life for America's citizens, only the government has shown itself to be up to doing the job completely. The private sector has always been there, and has always helped, and will always be more flexible, and the first to give and find those who need. They are both useful.

    dburkhead said:
    You are simply too young to remember what things were like before the "Great Society". Most of what you have been told about that are lies. People, by and large, are more than willing to give to help out the poor. At least the deserving poor. (Check out the play "Carousel" sometime. It has an interesting take on attitudes of a bygone day.)

    The Great Society had nothing to do with helping the poor. I'm one of those who is old enough (albeit barely) to remember what things were like before this so-called "Great Society" and how things have actually gotten worse in just about every metric since then.

    The Great Society, despite all the propaganda presented in its support, was not and is not about helping the poor. It is nothing more than a power grab by folk who believe in government control in more and more (eventually all) aspects of our lives.

    Nominal and inflation-adjusted income are higher than they were. Unemployment, except for very recently, is the lowest in the world, and remains better than Europe. Still, there are poor, this is true. America's approach has been superior to Europe's: We help those who will work, and they help everyone.

    No one seriously believes in government control over our lives. They might believe in making some trade of money for services, or not.


    dburkhead said:
    If by "good program" you mean "taking more control of people's lives, creating a permanent underclass, and otherwise making things worse than they were before" then I suppose.

    When has there not been an underclass, and why shouldn't there be?

    dburkhead said:
    There's a line I heard many years ago that has stuck with me: a liberal counts "compassion" by how many people get government assistance; a conservative, by how many people no longer need it.

    I don't think anyone wants to foster dependence. Find me one liberal who says people shouldn't work to improve their condition.

    dburkhead said:
    Despite what the propagandists would have you believe, people were not starving in the streets before the Great Society. Even during the Great Depression people may have had to go to "soup kitchens" to eat, but the soup kitchens (privately run, not government run) were there.

    People did starve on the streets, and do starve on the streets. Less do than did before. Now, the vast majority of homeless are the mentally ill and drug addicts. Before, able-bodied men and women and children composed the majority.

    dburkhead said:
    Now, some folk claim that going to soup kitchens to eat was demeaning, but, seriously, getting ones food from donations freely offered or from "donations" extracted by threat of force, which is really more demeaning?

    Personally, I think people need to sell their pride and take the handout. The humiliation of drawing a welfare check is the same as standing in line. It's the same disappointment in one's self that you cannot provide for yourself and your family by yourself. Few want to be on welfare, at worst they see it is as necessary.

    The force of hunger and poverty are greater than the force of an incremental tax increase. How free are the homeless?

    dburkhead said:
    Um, no. First off, the term "general welfare" appears in two places in the Constitution. First place is in the Preamble and grants no powers. Second place is in Article one under the powers granted to Congress, but note that it's in the specific part about raising taxes for the common defense and general welfare. But, as we read on farther we see that the specific powers congress is granted include raising and supporting armies, and calling out and arming the militia. Guess what, they've just defined their powers with respect to that "common defense" part of the tax raising power. So, clearly, the other powers listed in Article 1 are what is meant by "general welfare". That first part, granting the power to levy taxes for the common defense and general welfare only grants them the power to raise funds for those other enumerated powers. It does not grant power to change the English language, co-opt the word "welfare" to mean handouts to indigents, and then use the force of law to make a class permanently dependent on those handouts. Simply deciding to call something "welfare" does not make it Constitutional.

    This has been argued since the beginning of this country. Alexander Hamilton held the contrary position. I won't restate it, you can find it here:

    Taxing and Spending Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    dburkhead said:
    The being prepared you are defending here is the the functional equivalent of preparing by making sure you have plenty of guns to rob your neighbors so you don't go hungry. You're just having the government do it for you.

    Not at all. I'm arguing for a system where people are taxed, that force be used to enforce the law, and the money is spent in a way that benefits society.

    dburkhead said:
    You continue to drink the :koolaid:. Republican tax cuts affect everybody. I am far from rich and yet, strangely enough, I've also benefited from these tax cuts. Republicans cut taxes on everybody but since "the rich" are part of "everybody" it gets spun as "tax cuts on the rich". Democrats raise taxes on everybody (well, everybody who has an income) and that gets spun as "tax the rich."

    Tax cuts, exemptions, and reductions disproportionately affect the rich, at least when it comes to the income tax. The poor mostly don't pay income tax because they barely have enough to survive. They do pay Medicare/Medicaid/FICA. They do pay sales tax. They do pay property taxes and renter's taxes. They pay more of the liquor, gas, and cigarette taxes because they consume more of all of these things.

    dburkhead said:
    As for the Warren Buffet thing, I suspect somebody is pointing to gross, not net, income. Among the things that are the difference between those two factors is that secretary's salary.

    Taxes are paid on profits, not revenue, and losses are deducted.

    Here's the article:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece



    dburkhead said:
    So much the worse for the Federal Courts then. A precedent was set with FDR's blackmail of the Supreme Court of his day to get Social Security past muster. The rest follows from that. That's one of the problems with precedent in legal cases is that bad decisions made by bad means are just as much precedent as good decisions.

    FDR did pack the court to achieve his aims, the rejected many of his programs as unconstitutional before and after that incident, but fewer after. It hasn't been packed since.

    Do you think most people are against Social Security today? Do you think that if it were found constitutional tomorrow, an amendment to the constitution authorizing it would not be made? It's a deeply popular measure, and it does a lot of good.


    dburkhead said:
    Another canard. That the democratic party keeps making that claim doesn't make it so.

    Can you demonstrate that it is false?

    dburkhead said:
    If you don't want to be thought a liberal, then maybe you should stop making liberal points, repeating liberal propaganda as holy writ, and otherwise acting as a liberal.

    It's really amazing how many people out there play the "I'm not a liberal but..." while having really nothing but liberal positions (or maybe a token "conservative" position here or there). It's not amazing that they do it. It's amazing that they expect anybody to fall for it.

    I'm sorry you think the world is so simple as to contain only members of one tribe or the other. Politics are really much more complicated than that.

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" right?

    I never fail to find someone who thinks liberalism and communism are the same thing, and that I am one or both.

    Did anyone want to share the burden when I spent my time in libraries rather than out drinking? When I spent such money as I had buying books rather than on tobacco or other drugs? When I was actually in school rather than playing hooky?

    When I picked a hard subject in college rather than some "liberal arts" degree that translates to "do you want fries with that"?

    When I was doing all the things that made me employable with a nice paying job and doing without in the present so I would do better in the future?

    Where were all these people with their hands in my pocket then?

    The government built the libraries and helped create as well as pay for all the places of learning. Imagine if you had to pay to read library books. Imagine if you had to pay out-or-state or out-of-country fees in college. It would be harder for the poor to read and self-improve if they didn't. It is better for all that the poor are given the opportunity to exceed their circumstances.
     

    printcraft

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    ......
    .................. These restrictions make them less available to criminals. Valuable collector's items, legally possessed, don't often make their way into the hands of criminals.

    Of course, I do want to see some of the restrictions loosened up, but not where the danger of the weapon exceeds the utility.
    .................

    :dunno:

    Exactly what restrictions would you like to see "loosened up"?

    The Brady bunch would be proud to call you one of their own. :noway:
     

    tuoder

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    Did anyone want to share the burden when I spent my time in libraries rather than out drinking? When I spent such money as I had buying books rather than on tobacco or other drugs? When I was actually in school rather than playing hooky?

    When I picked a hard subject in college rather than some "liberal arts" degree that translates to "do you want fries with that"?

    When I was doing all the things that made me employable with a nice paying job and doing without in the present so I would do better in the future?

    Where were all these people with their hands in my pocket then?

    :dunno:

    Exactly what restrictions would you like to see "loosened up"?

    The Brady bunch would be proud to call you one of their own. :noway:

    I mentioned them earlier. I don't see any point in restricting SBRs or SBSs or suppressors. AOWs are a tough case, as it is a catch-all, so that law could be made more clear and concise. DDs and machine guns are good where they're at, except the transfer tax is too high.
     

    Eddie

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    I mentioned them earlier. I don't see any point in restricting SBRs or SBSs or suppressors. AOWs are a tough case, as it is a catch-all, so that law could be made more clear and concise. DDs and machine guns are good where they're at, except the transfer tax is too high.

    So, you don't agree with the second amendment, that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed?
     

    printcraft

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    I mentioned them earlier. I don't see any point in restricting SBRs or SBSs or suppressors. AOWs are a tough case, as it is a catch-all, so that law could be made more clear and concise. DDs and machine guns are good where they're at, except the transfer tax is too high.[/quote]

    Still an infringement no matter how you slice it............

    OK let's move on to part 2

    ......
    .........................but not where the danger of the weapon exceeds the utility.
    .................

    Thinking like that is what lead to a British style ban on everything.
    Have you seen their new "stab proof" knives? They are da-bomb.
     

    tuoder

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    I mentioned them earlier. I don't see any point in restricting SBRs or SBSs or suppressors. AOWs are a tough case, as it is a catch-all, so that law could be made more clear and concise. DDs and machine guns are good where they're at, except the transfer tax is too high.[/quote]

    Still an infringement no matter how you slice it............

    OK let's move on to part 2



    Thinking like that is what lead to a British style ban on everything.
    Have you seen their new "stab proof" knives? They are da-bomb.

    I don't recall advocating that, in fact quite the opposite.
     

    IndyMonkey

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    I mentioned them earlier. I don't see any point in restricting SBRs or SBSs or suppressors. AOWs are a tough case, as it is a catch-all, so that law could be made more clear and concise. DDs and machine guns are good where they're at, except the transfer tax is too high.

    Im at a loss of words for you. I always thought putting people on the ignore list was dumb but reading what you write makes me want to shake my head in shame knowing that you might be a gun owner.

    From reading what you post I can tell you are very well educated. Im hope that your just lacking the real life experience that will come with age.

    Have a good day Im going to the gun range.
     

    tuoder

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    You have a slightly different idea of what "shall not be infringed" means?

    Yes.

    Im at a loss of words for you. I always thought putting people on the ignore list was dumb but reading what you write makes me want to shake my head in shame knowing that you might be a gun owner.

    From reading what you post I can tell you are very well educated. Im hope that your just lacking the real life experience that will come with age.

    Have a good day Im going to the gun range.

    Well I hope you don't ignore me on account of disagreeing with you. I hope I'm not alone in valuing the discussion. The rights protected by the First amendment are important as well.
     

    jsgolfman

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    So, how does your definition of infringe differ from this one:
    "encroach on somebody's rights or property: to take over land, rights, privileges, or activities that belong to somebody else, especially in a minor or gradual way"
    And, how do you translate "shall not be" in relation to infringe in the definition above?
     
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