Local family tired of being victimized

[Kitty]

I’ve been following this thread from the start. I honestly still don’t know how I feel about this. I’ve been on the victim's side where the cops won’t/can’t do anything. I’ve been helpless (or at least felt it) and worked past it to the rage that follows. I had dreams about really making him “pay”. But when I finally did find it in myself to fight, I stopped when I could get away. My rationality came back and we ran. We had enough for an arrest and a restraining order. I’ve never regretted my actions. I think I would have regretted beating him to a pulp or worse.


Applied to this situation, are these people really vindicated by their actions? I’m not certain. Or are they just becoming the new Billy Bad A$$? Shooting and stabbing another human being who is actually down? Are we really good with this?


Part of me wanted to yell “yeah get’em” but something in me is saying no good will come of this.

 

[HandK]

Sounds like a Win!!!

 

[nate1865]

What's sad is that they apparently had to do this to protect themselves, when such an out of control problem should have been taken care of long before it got to this point by those in charge of protecting us from criminals.

 

[IndySSD]

Part of me wanted to yell “yeah get’em” but something in me is saying no good will come of this.

And this is what makes you a just and honorable person. You see that justice is needed and have the morals to mete it out while tempering your anger.

Reps inc.

 

[grizman]

^ You're Assuming that they were beaten, shot and stabbed while not fighting back and disarmed. For all we know the family stopped once they got them subdued, which took them being shot, stabbed and beaten.[/quote

Nice try with the ASSuming insult, you get not points however for the effort.

I should have qualified that with if the witness claiming she saw the man being beaten with a club while on the ground is credible.

BTW two men on the ground with 15 men basically on top of them normally is not a win for the two, unless the two are Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

My point is this is no more acceptable than the actions of a select few LEO's that have been demonized on this and many other forums for similar excessive use of force, as they should be. Excessive force is excessive force, whether you wear a badge or not.

I am in no way saying the family was wrong in defending the woman, they were excessive without a doubt in my mind. If we the people can not hold ourselves to a standard, then how do we expect LE to abide by a standard!

How can we demonize LE for the excessive use of force while accepting it in a case like this?


I hold actions by both to the same standard and will state my opinion if I see evidence either has violated that standard. That standard being, no further force used, after the "subject" is unable to effectively cause further harm.

 

[jdhaines]

My thinking is that this wasn't a one-time deal. If anyone stirs people up to the point where 15 family members and neighbors know what's happening and join in to help then they get what they deserve. If a random occurrence happened and a robber was beaten, shot, and stabbed by a mob maybe that's a mob run-amuck. I don't see that being the case. These people had been victimized over and over and decided to stand up for themselves and fight and I can't say I'm against it. Is it against a law...perhaps, but I've said it once and I'll say it again...Jury Nullification. That law in those particular set of circumstances didn't apply and those people should go free. The jury needs to judge the actions and the law for each case. If a child molester molests a little boy then kills him and the dad finds out and kills the molester...Did he commit murder? Sure. Should he be found guilty? No way. I'm not against a little vigilantism. Criminals are no longer afraid of the justice system and that tells me we're doing something wrong.

EDIT: I wouldn't allow a LEO the same amount of leniency in this regard because of their status for agents of the justice system. The vigilante may be arrested and then let go by a jury of their peers. If the LEO wants to take that badge off and act as a normal citizen then he gets the same treatment. I know, I'm living in a pipe dream though.

 

[printcraft]

Ok, would the actions of the family be acceptable if they were employed as police officers?

WTH does this have to do with the original post by Scutter01?
Can't we just stick with the discussion from the OP without going here?
There is enough cop fervor without needing to manufacture more for a stick poke.

I mean, we can put up what if's all day long....
What if they were fire fighters?
What if they were accountants?
What if they were sharks with freaking lazer beams on their heads?

Lets just stick with the original story please and leave out the

 

[wetidlerjr]

Regardless on the occupations of the "friends and family", I am willing to bet the alleged robbers were, in reality, two fine, young gentlemen that were just asking for directions to the nearest church so that they could continue to turn their lives around.

 

[ckcollins2003]

I certainly said nothing of the sort. If as a private citizen I could safely apprehend the suspects, I would. If during the commission of the crime, they were shot and killed, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. In the personal sense, if the situation you described, happened to my mother, I would probably but a legendary beatdown on the perp. That said, after the police arrived and found a mangled guy bleeding on the ground, I wouldn't be surprised, and would actually expect to end up in the "clink."

So you don't feel it was right for them to engage the situation after the muggers had fled, but you would have done the same thing. Interesting...
My whole thing is that they still had a firearm, which they had already discharged. They ran with it. The citizens that ran them off didn't know what was going to happen next. All they knew is that they were sick of this crap happening while the police did nothing to stop it. The muggers could have easily have come back with larger weapons and pursued an even more heinous act against them. In my opinion, the crime was still going on. They were resisting a citizens arrest. If you resist a police officers arrest, you get beaten, tazed, and possibly shot just as well. So what's the problem?

Had law enforcement done their job correctly and patrolled the area frequently (obviously it's happened a few times in this area) there's a good possibility that it wouldn't have come to this, but sometimes it's best to leave a person on the verge of death and let them come back and think about what they have done, rather than kill them and let them have the easy way out.

As far as incarceration goes, if you read towards the end of the article, you will have seen where the police were waiting to hear the muggers side of the story in order to press charges, but they can't get a hold of them. Unless the police press charges against them (highly unlikely in this situation) the only other people who can are the would be muggers. It's not that they can't end up in the "clink" as you call it, but someone has to press charges against them in order for that to happen.

 

[bobzilla]

^ You're Assuming that they were beaten, shot and stabbed while not fighting back and disarmed. For all we know the family stopped once they got them subdued, which took them being shot, stabbed and beaten.[/quote

Nice try with the ASSuming insult, you get not points however for the effort.

I should have qualified that with if the witness claiming she saw the man being beaten with a club while on the ground is credible.

BTW two men on the ground with 15 men basically on top of them normally is not a win for the two, unless the two are Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

My point is this is no more acceptable than the actions of a select few LEO's that have been demonized on this and many other forums for similar excessive use of force, as they should be. Excessive force is excessive force, whether you wear a badge or not.

I am in no way saying the family was wrong in defending the woman, they were excessive without a doubt in my mind. If we the people can not hold ourselves to a standard, then how do we expect LE to abide by a standard!

How can we demonize LE for the excessive use of force while accepting it in a case like this?


I hold actions by both to the same standard and will state my opinion if I see evidence either has violated that standard. That standard being, no further force used, after the "subject" is unable to effectively cause further harm.

Again, we weren;t there and have no idea at what point the two stopped fighting back and were still armed. They are still alive, so they obviously stopped at some point when they thought they were no longer in danger.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So you don't feel it was right for them to engage the situation after the muggers had fled, but you would have done the same thing. Interesting...

No, not the same thing... I'm not going to club, stab, or shoot anybody (most certainly not all three) unless it is required.

Had law enforcement done their job correctly and patrolled the area frequently (obviously it's happened a few times in this area) there's a good possibility that it wouldn't have come to this, but sometimes it's best to leave a person on the verge of death and let them come back and think about what they have done, rather than kill them and let them have the easy way out.

That's an unqualified statement, it appears that there is plenty of crime, ie murders and the like, in Cambridge Arms. It also appears that Community Watch Meetings (sponsored by FPD) occur there as well. So based on the crimes alone, there seems a pretty regular police presence.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Again, we weren;t there and have no idea at what point the two stopped fighting back and were still armed. They are still alive, so they obviously stopped at some point when they thought they were no longer in danger.

...and then they called the police to the scene and waited by incapacitated crooks, right?

No, a bystander called to police for fear of thinking the men would be "murdered" ...and apparently the "family" wasn't at the immediate crime scene when police arrived, but rather "walking around."

 

[bobzilla]

...and then they called the police to the scene and waited by incapacitated crooks, right?

No, a bystander called to police for fear of thinking the men would be "murdered" ...and apparently the "family" wasn't at the immediate crime scene when police arrived, but rather "walking around."

Again, WE weren't there and to assume anything is silly. You believe whatever you want. I will do the same. To act as though you know the situation from a single article is retarded.

 

[Phil502]

When the two robbers decided to put a gun to a 47 year old woman and then take a shot at a guy coming to help her they lost all sympathy from me. If the family decided to bruise them up a little or bruise them up a whole lot lot doesn't matter to me ,either way, I'm just glad someone had the guts to stand up to these guys, the manner in which they do it is their business.

 

[jbombelli]

EDIT: I wouldn't allow a LEO the same amount of leniency in this regard because of their status for agents of the justice system. The vigilante may be arrested and then let go by a jury of their peers. If the LEO wants to take that badge off and act as a normal citizen then he gets the same treatment. I know, I'm living in a pipe dream though.

My thoughts on this particular issue as well.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Again, WE weren't there and to assume anything is silly. You believe whatever you want. I will do the same. To act as though you know the situation from a single article is retarded.

Interesting the leeway you will allow to a private citizen... both men were beaten with a club, stabbed, and shot... 15 on 2... I would love to see the responses if 15 coppers did the same to 2 guys... hell even Rodney King had better odds.... but then again, he was "resisting" as well.

 

[femurphy77]

(In Spanish as he wipes the blood from his hands and face) No Officer, I didn't see or hear anything unusual a few minutes ago, am I free to leave?

 

[gunman41mag]

If someone was putting a gun to my family members, I would go E V I L on them, & make sure they would NEVER retaliate

 

[bobzilla]

Interesting the leeway you will allow to a private citizen... both men were beaten with a club, stabbed, and shot... 15 on 2... I would love to see the responses if 15 coppers did the same to 2 guys... hell even Rodney King had better odds.... but then again, he was "resisting" as well.

You're mistaking me for the anti-police brigade in here. I give leeway in either case. But then I am a JBT-lover or some other nonsense.

 

[jbombelli]

Interesting the leeway you will allow to a private citizen... both men were beaten with a club, stabbed, and shot... 15 on 2... I would love to see the responses if 15 coppers did the same to 2 guys... hell even Rodney King had better odds.... but then again, he was "resisting" as well.

Private citizens are not agents of the state, and did not take any oath to uphold and enforce the law. Further, police are trained to not let their emotions get the best of them when dealing with bad people. Finally, you as the LEO are NOT in any way the victim here.

You want the same leeway? Resign. Stop being the representative of the state. As long as you have a badge you will be held to a different standard than a private citizen.

edited: but if it was YOU or YOUR family being victimized and you beat the guys' a**es for doing it, then I personally would give you that same leeway.